Karaoke Forums

This is true. I was the victim of a frivolous civil suit in another state several years ago. I had to pay my lawyer, who engaged a lawyer in that state, who then got the case dismissed because the company who sued me had no right to file suit in any state except for mine. This cost me several thousand dollars. I then spent $500 more trying to recover my legal fees, thinking I could get the money back, but I didn't. I did not hire a cheap hack-job lawyer, either, it was $500 an hour.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

This example has been one of my main points from the very beginning, but others kept bashing it and telling me I was wrong!
Finally! Someone who can vouch for the fact that a lawsuit filed against an innocent party CAN and DOES cost tons of money for said innocent party.
All this legal stuff ain't free and it ain't cheap, you know!
And letitrip is correct. It's not as easy to PROVE you have been damaged, which you must do to counter-sue, but the reality is people talk and it CAN and DOES do damage, even if it can't be proven in court.

If someone broke into a brick and mortar karaoke store and stole every karaoke disc ever made and proceeded to run karaoke shows every night of the week with those karaoke tracks; what would a Sound Choice investigator be able to deduce from observing this person's show? As far as the investigator can see, the KJ has an original disc for every song that he is displaying on the screen. Does Sound Choice have the RIGHT to force this person to produce a receipt for every disc? Even though every disc that this person uses is, in fact, stolen property, Sound Choice has no probable cause to ASSUME that the person stole them. Just because someone has 200,000 karaoke tracks doesn't make them automatically guilty. The guy who bought a pre loaded hard drive is no more or less guilty than the guy who stole a few thousand karaoke discs from a store but the guy who stole the discs can show them to Sound Choice and be off the "hook" (pun intended), while the pirate is still hung out to dry. They both are doing shows with tracks that they didn't "legally" purchase but one is screwed while the other one at least "looks" legal. If Sound Choice can't force the guy who stole discs from a store to prove where he got his music; how can they force a guy runnning a show with a computer to prove that he has bought every disc that he claims to own??

I can't wait until one of these cases gets to court to see how it turns out. The excuses and rationalizations that will be presented will be incredibly interesting, to say the least.

PIRATE:
"I had bought thousands of karaoke discs at a flea market your honor. I then transferred them all to my hard drive to make doing my shows easier. I always kept the original discs in my van while doing my shows in case my PC crashed and I had to use the discs and also to prove my legality but one night while doing a show, my van was broken into and all of my discs were stolen." Thank God that I had made back up copies of them on my computer so I could stay in business and now Sound Choice is trying to force me to buy the same songs all over again that I have already purchased in good faith. This is just an example of GOLIATH picking on poor little David, once again.

JUDGE:
Case Dismissed !! Next case.

So all you gotta do is ADMIT that you have a few illegal tracks???

That is a tactic used by many detectives all over the world, "come on ADMIT it, it's no big deal"


Two percent of your song collection could easily be a few hundred songs, what is the penalty per song??? go ahead admit it to them, they said they would be cool.

PIRATE:
"I had bought thousands of karaoke discs at a flea market your honor. I then transferred them all to my hard drive to make doing my shows easier. I always kept the original discs in my van while doing my shows in case my PC crashed and I had to use the discs and also to prove my legality but one night while doing a show, my van was broken into and all of my discs were stolen." Thank God that I had made back up copies of them on my computer so I could stay in business and now Sound Choice is trying to force me to buy the same songs all over again that I have already purchased in good faith. This is just an example of GOLIATH picking on poor little David, once again.

JUDGE:
Case Dismissed !! Next case.

Bruce I wouldn't bet the farm on that one. No discs, no case is the likely outcome. The judge would probably sympathetic but in many cases they are but have to follow the rule of law. If a judge would allow that, then every pirate out there would claim the same thing.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Exactly, something gets stolen, you either have insurance to compensate & you 're-buy' to the best you can with the availability of what is out there a comparable replacement or you are SOL!
If I had all my discs stolen, I would not expect to be able to keep using my copies. That is assinine.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

How many of us lost that disc that came with our computers?? Can they legally still use windows???

In this day and age of E tickets, digital downloads and online banking, a physical item like a disc is not a huge priority for some.

IF(cuz it is not a fact) purchase of said discs gives us the right to use the contents as we see fit(convert to files on our pc), someday it may also be found that theft does not take away that license.

it is not up to the defendant to prove he has/had the license at the time of alleged infringements, it is up to the plaintiff to prove that he did not.

Listen, there are Lawyers all over the country drooling for SC to contact them.
It is EASY MONEY for both the lawyers and SC. ( SC at least has a valid stake )

But the majority of these cases are settled, EASY MONEY. Lawyers make out - SC recoups some money and the defendant gets off relatively easy.

All SC has to do is throw a rock in any county in any state and it will hit some KJ with some illegal tracks on their hardrive. Thats no secret.

BruceFan4Life @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:58 am wrote:

If someone broke into a brick and mortar karaoke store and stole every karaoke disc ever made and proceeded to run karaoke shows every night of the week with those karaoke tracks; what would a Sound Choice investigator be able to deduce from observing this person's show? As far as the investigator can see, the KJ has an original disc for every song that he is displaying on the screen. Does Sound Choice have the RIGHT to force this person to produce a receipt for every disc? Even though every disc that this person uses is, in fact, stolen property, Sound Choice has no probable cause to ASSUME that the person stole them. Just because someone has 200,000 karaoke tracks doesn't make them automatically guilty. The guy who bought a pre loaded hard drive is no more or less guilty than the guy who stole a few thousand karaoke discs from a store but the guy who stole the discs can show them to Sound Choice and be off the "hook" (pun intended), while the pirate is still hung out to dry. They both are doing shows with tracks that they didn't "legally" purchase but one is screwed while the other one at least "looks" legal. If Sound Choice can't force the guy who stole discs from a store to prove where he got his music; how can they force a guy runnning a show with a computer to prove that he has bought every disc that he claims to own??

I can't wait until one of these cases gets to court to see how it turns out. The excuses and rationalizations that will be presented will be incredibly interesting, to say the least.

PIRATE:
"I had bought thousands of karaoke discs at a flea market your honor. I then transferred them all to my hard drive to make doing my shows easier. I always kept the original discs in my van while doing my shows in case my PC crashed and I had to use the discs and also to prove my legality but one night while doing a show, my van was broken into and all of my discs were stolen." Thank God that I had made back up copies of them on my computer so I could stay in business and now Sound Choice is trying to force me to buy the same songs all over again that I have already purchased in good faith. This is just an example of GOLIATH picking on poor little David, once again.

JUDGE:
Case Dismissed !! Next case.

Bruce,

It was refreshing to find another person who realize that this
"situation" is not a "cut and dry matter" and that no one can predict what will happen if a case were ever to go to trial.

Of course, Lonman is absolutely correct that you cannot use your b/u library for commercial purposes.

A judge would never dismiss a case like that.. ever.

Definitely not.

I agree with Bruce, though, that any case that reaches trial is going to be extraordinarily interesting. But again, I don't think any will reach trial and I would be surprised if they do. I think SC is in virgin territory and is as fearful as any defendant would be of going to court.

Consider, this: If SC goes to court and loses:
1) a precedent maybe established, depending upon the basis for the ruling, that might not be in SC's best interest
2) SC may find themselves in the position that no another KJ will dole over another dime to them and will opt for the trial

You may find that some of the preceding opinions don't prevail when it comes to commercial vs personal use.

And in civil suits such as filed by SC, the plaintiff has to show by the preponderance of the evidence that the accused is guilty. And the plaintiff in such suits is often granted a good deal of latitude during the "Discovery Phase" to review certain of the defendants records and determine how valid their claim is or isn't.

And whatever they "discover" can be used in court

Thanks, tovmod. This is something I've stated from the beginning of all this as well. Sc will avoid going to trial at all costs because what they have here is NOT clear cut and set out in case law. It's all new territory. Check some of my older posts on the subject and you'll see what I mean. This is TRADEMARK infringement, NOT copyright. They are two totally different things with two totally different sets of case law. SC is treading on dangerous ground if they head into a courtroom, and they know it, and I honestly don't think they will win, based on what they've stated in their documents filed in court. They simply don't meet the criteria for proving infringement.

Um actually yes! You can because it was a licensed version. But if you needed to reload it to another computer, then you would need to get another disc because you lost it.

Every digital download site for karaoke i've come across state, Not for commercial use.

One could always hope, but doubtful.

Not sure what you are getting at here, copying music to hard drive is still technically illegal to begin with, never been a license to be able to have.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

On the "discs were stolen" defense, we are often talking about something worth thousands of dollars. My boyfriend always wonders, "Did you file a police report or insurance claim?"

Granted, something like when my boyfriend put his personal disc collection on top of the car and drove off is not going to be something anyone would take the trouble to report . But if you have a huge collection you are using for a business, it would seem a different story. At least you would have something on file to indicate that you had the discs in the first place (reciepts) and that you just didn't sell them (insurance claim/police report).