Karaoke Forums

Pardon me for asking some questions regarding Shure microphones. You guys seem to know a lot about microphones.

I am seriously considering buying two Shure microphones. My old SM58S suffered a cracked casing when it was "accidentally" dropped by my son while practicing with his band. I could not believe that the seemingly indestructible mic would break but it did. I had previously replaced the grill for the mic but this time the mic is beyond repair, or so I think.

Here are my choices:
1. SM58 (no switch) - $90
2. Beta 58A - $120
3. Beta 87A - $180

All of those prices are for brand new mics as posted on ebay.

I haven't had the chance to audition the Beta mics and so I can't decide if their supposedly better sound quality can justify their higher prices.

Thoughts, anyone?

JD

JD,
Those are great prices.. If ya can also look at the SM-86 if you run a console with phantom power (48v) this mic is a cardioid condenser, and is a really nice sounding but affordable, like the shure vocal mics normally are. A Shure Rep called it "The condenser mic to compare all others to." In my NAMM (2003) comparison, It sound really nice although for the money it sounded like a condenser version of my Audix OM-5 without as much 6K boost.

Retail suggested price is $300.00 usd, E-bay $185.00 usd.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

SM58 is a great mic. Price is decent, "virtually" indestructable & sounds good. Decent feedback rejection - overall a great mic for karaoke.
Beta 58 is basically the same as the SM, but has a tighter pick-up pattern for better feedback control & better frequency response. Drawback is with the tight pickup pattern, the singer must be singing right into the mic & as you probably see, many singers try to emulate the videos of their favorite stars & hold the mic up, or cup it, or pointed somewhere on their face OTHER than their mouth. With this mic & a singer like this, the sound will actually be less pleasing.

The 87 is a killer sounding mic, great sound, used often in studios & many concert tours - NOT practical for karaoke. It's a condensor mic for one thing making it a little less durable if dropped plus it requires phantom power from the mixer or an external source - without this, your mic is worthless anyway.

I also bet that if you send your broken mic back to Shure, you could probably get it replaced for half the cost of a new one.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

One thing Lon Left out on the Beta 87 is the windscreen the design and shape of it changes the sound somewhat (I really don't know exactly how) but that is what mic manufacturers tell me.

Audix tried that with one model and literally got a near comparision of the Beta 87 but with more gain and a little warmer. I almost bought 2 of them. but still have those 2 additional mics on my "Wish List".

So the design does make a difference, along with the capsule inside.. Just remember... not all mics are the same, and you will pay for the difference.

BTW... Audio Technica and Sennheiser may be worth looking at also..

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Brian D.
(BHB)

Thank you guys for your quick and sane advices.

Lon - It sounds like the SM58 is the right choice for me, if I simply use the mic for karaoke or even my son's band. My son also records his own songs and so perhaps I may consider the 87A for that purpose or my own personal use. You made a good point about the 87A being fragile and I certainly don't want to lose a $180 mic. I do have the cheapies, like the ones I bought from speakerrepair.com. http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/ ... ccessories

I wouldn't mind having drunks use those since they are so cheap and they are not that bad, sound-wise.

I never thought that Shure can repair the mic. I will give them a call and see if they can repair it for much less than the cost of a brand new one.

BHB - Thank your letting me know about the sound impact of the windscreen shape. The 86A looks very good and cheaper too.

At this point, I have narrowed down my choices to the following:
1. For general use - SM58 at $90 ea.
2. For recording/private use - 86A at $120 ea.

You mentioned Audio Technica and Sennheiser. Can you recommend which models I should consider and how do they
compare against the Shure mics?

BTW, I found this forum quite useful and entertaining at times. I have learned so much from reading the posts on this board.

JD

The Sennheiser 835 is a good all around mic. I don't think it really sounds any better or worse than the 58 - just a little different. Which can be good for different singers.
Some claim it blows the 58 away sound wise, others think it blows chunks!

Can't comment on any Audio Technica, the only reference I can give is for the 4060 & 4033 studio mics & these would most definately not be suited for any karaoke use.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I own the Sennheiser Evolution 100 (entry level) wireless and it does blow tyhe SM58 away..Hands down!. But I still have and occasionally use my SM58. They are both good mics, but I'm just partial to the warmth and presence of the Sennheiser. This is a partial decision as I obviously spent more for the wireless Sennheiser as opposed to the corded Shure SM58. I only use the Shure when someone else is using the Sennheiser or if the battery in the Sennheiser has gone dead. Most will tell you that the SM58 is the standard, but use your judgement to decide what sounds best and built to last. My Sennheiser is built like a tank, and I believe it is as durable (if not more so) as the Shure.

..Just my 02 cents.

Cheers

Lon is right on that...

OF The AT lines / models I would personally recommend and use... are the Midnight Blues series (MB series) or the (my personal favorite of the AT line) the Artist Elite Line the AE 5200 and the AE 6100 mics
the specs to the AE 6100 mic can be found at:

http://audiotechnica.com/prodpro/profiles/AE6100.html

Even though I am an Audix Endorser.

I find these mics to do the few things that the models of audix don't fill the void of.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

I have to laugh when people say if it has a switch or is inexpensive, it's garbage. Of all the mics we have I prefer the Senn but the next best sounding mic (better than the Shure and Samson) is the Apex 850 (switched) by Yorkville. At under $40.00Cdn and includes 15' wire and clip. It can also take a beating.

Given my choice in order of quality/economics

1. Apex
2. Senn
3. Shure
4. Samson

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Lots of good information here but I got the biggest kick out of Animaliens quote in his signature. SO I STOLE IT!

Wait a minute. While I don't agree that people think having a switch makes the KJ a tight wad, I also fail to see the logic in what you say. Unless you have to buy a $250 mic EVERY time you do a show because someone wrecks one. Then I would suggest you should either dump the show or start charging the venue more for damages.

A more fair account would be:

$1000.00 cost of doing business (4 mics @ $250 a mic).
$7200.00 Earned income per year ($150 x48 weeks)

Granted you have a lot of costs. But chances are you are doing more than one show a week and more than 30 shows a year. A $250 mic will be insignificant. Especially if you use it for a couple years.

Actually, if I was to start a Karaoke business with only 1 show a week for a year (48 weeks), here is how the $$ would break down:

$900 - simple PA system (mixing board, effects, Amp and 400 watt speakers)
$300 - JVC 3 tray player.
$800 - Software - enough discs to start
$300 - Books created and printed (10 books @ $30 each)
$300 - 13 inch and 20 inch TV for lyrics viewing
$100 - mic/monitor stand
$1000 - 4 mics
$150 - Cords needed to connect system.
$150 - simple lighting scheme
$100 - slips, slip containers, pencils.
$500 - misc costs (replace damaged books, cords, posters for the venue, driving expense,etc)
__________
$4300
$7200 - Earned income (1 show $150/week x 48 weeks)
_________
$2900

You are making about $60 a show the first year. If you add a second show, you are making $100 a show the first year (14400 earned income - $4300 /48 /2).

Of course starting cost is going to vary from system to system. But the idea is that after the first year, those mics aren't really that expensive. Usually setting up a $500-$1000 kitty for purchasing misc items per year (new software, new books, Equipment mantainance, etc) is feesable. The second year you are up to $140 a show. More than a musician would make per gig.

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A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

I just went through this (starting a karaoke business) and find it strange that you recommend to spend more on mics than the system.

Nearly every recommendation I got was for $1700 on the system and $400 on mics. (2xMakie SRM450+mixer/4xShure SM58's). I'd have to buy 10 SM58's to rack up $1000 and I don't think I've ever seen a karaoke show with that many mics.

My experience so far in starting a karaoke business on a shoestring (note: new bar, seats only about 30 ppl, total 50-75 in the bar and restaurant - system below suffices for this venue) is outlined below.

Note that this is 1 gig a week as a side line to my day job and 100% of the profits are put back into the business to upgrade equipment and increase the # of songs available.

$800 - Fender PD-250 (250 watts/Bose co-deisgned speakers)
$120 - Speaker stands
$0 - DVD player I already own (I have some VCD discs - yes, shudder - org. cost for player $50)
$0 - existing laptop w/ mp3's for music (over 100GB of music LEGAL)
$200 - 2x CD+G player (low end players, but I'll have a backup and move to a 3 tray JVC when it's not $75+ to ship it to me)
$50 - books (photo copying/books)

That's $1170 to start the first gig. No mics aren't listed - the PD-250 came with a pair of decent mics, I added one I already had (Shure PG58), and a cheap wireless pair of mics for intro's, etc (they're not good enough to use for singing but I can use them to move around the room to check the sound, and do the announcements).

The TV is provided by the bar I'm doing the show.
Over the next week I'll buy:
$400 - 4x Shure SM58's (and maybe a Sennheiser e835 or two as a backup)
$500 - additional CDG's (to increase the music for the show)
$100 - 13" TV
$unk - stand for 13" TV

$2170 in the first month

Next expenses (before mid-November):
$1400 - 2x Mackie SRM's to do larger shows
$350 - Mixer (shooting for 6 mics, 3 stereo inputs min)
$500 - additional CDG's

That puts my total expenditure before the end of the year (first 120 days of operation) at closer to $4420. This doesn't include close to $150 in advertising (business cards, flyers, phone calls, etc) that I'll be spending to land more shows for christmas parties, new year's eve parties, etc.

Mics have different responses, and it seems that everyone has a 'favorite' mic. I looked at the Sennheiser e835 and compared it to the Shure SM85. The Sennheiser is a better mic if you base it on freq response, how flat it responds over the range, etc. It's also slightly heavier. The reviews I saw on the Sennheiser we excellent and most had switched from the SM58. While the quality of the electronics and how they respond is important what I'm most concerned with is longevity. It makes sense to spend an extra $30 per mic if it's going to last 4x as long (or more).

I don't care if the singers think I'm a cheap wad. They're not professional artists in a recording studio trying to put down a track they plan to sell. They're in a bar with friends having a good time. Sounding good is important, but while I'm not using a $30 Radio Shack mic it's not a $10,000 studio mic either.

Most karaoke singers are happy to get up and sing and have me make them sound as good as I can. They're not concerned that there are switches on the mic, that it's a $60 mic and not $100, or anything else on the equipment side. They want to have a good time, the bar wants to make more money, and I help to provide that - cheap wad or no.

I agree - SM 58's are great mics. They work for bands, they should work for Karaoke.

I would personally buy 1 wireless mic @$300, 4 SM58 @ $100 and 3 Nady SP5's for $20 as backup mics. That is $720 right there.

I am also all for keeping overhead down. But I want a system that will do the job - not one that will need a "band aid" every time I go to start it. Something that will work on a larger scale if the venue was to change. All I would have to do is add one or two things to it.

Still, $4400 is not bad for starting up your own little business. It's just a question of where you want to take it.

_________________
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"

Some of the newbies here are spending way too much to get started.

Why don't you that are starting out try this:
Get 2 quality corded mics, (I use SM58s), and then get a decent mic with a switch to use as an announce mic, (I have an Audio 2000's ADM-106 that comes with a cord which I paid $20 for although you can get them for as low as $15). Note that it comes with a cord.

Then shop for deals.

You may get a "deal" on a player if you go to a karaoke shop and buy the floor sample.
I did.

Here are some of the deals that I've made:
An Odyssey 12 rackspace rack with rack to adapter to accommodate my player, second hand from a friend for $125.

A Steward PA1200, 1200 watt amp with one channel blown from the same friend for $125.

Factory repair for the Steward amp. $75. I knew the senior test tech for Steward amps, and in addition to the repair, he gave me a new faceplate, a differant cover, and new handles. The cover that I had was dented and the one that he got for me had a simple scratch, (I spray painted it with Rustolem to match the faceplate). He even got me a new box so that when I saw the friend that sold it to me I could tell him that they blew it up at the factory and gave me a new one to replace it.
You should of seen the look on his face!

When I bought my SM58s at The Guitar Center, I passed on the weekend sale price, ($10 off), and took advantage of the monthly special.
Full price with a mic stand for each.

Mackie 1202VLZ pro mixer second hand from the same friend in mint condition for $125.

Two Sound Tech 200 watt, 2-way monitor/mains with 15" drivers for $200.

Two Sony powered home theater towers from a friend at work for $50.

Two, Osborne, US made, 2-way speakers with dual 12" drivers from a pawn shop for $125. I tested them and another pair of speakers before buying.

An Azden 31XT snap on transmitter that you can use to make any mic with an XLR connecter into a wireless mic. and an Azden 311DR reciever for the 31XT from an audio equipment exchange for $229. The 311DR alone lists for $230, and the 31XT lists for $170.

A Carvin P1200-832 from the same good friend for $750. Lists for $1170.

A secondhand Digitech S-100 sound processor with manual for $125.

I even bought my surge protecter on sale.

There are SO many deals out that you can't help but to trip over one if you keep your eyes peeled and look for them. Try asking the KJs and DJs in your neighborhood if they can make you a deal on some of the stuff that they have just laying around.
I had a friend just give me a back-up amp out of the clear blue sky.
He knew that I was just starting out and and gave it to me without my asking. This is a differant friend than the one that I talked about earlier.
I have another friend who is an audio engineer for the NBC studio in Burbank offer to give me a preamp. I moved to N. Ca. a couple of weeks later and never got to connect up with him, but that's MY loss.

It sure is nice to have good friends!
It's also nice to be able to be a good friend to another.

It wouldn't hurt to send some of the KJs here a personal message and ask them if they could make a deal with you.
While you're at it go to lonmanproductions.com and check out the mixer that he just sold.

I'm not suggesting that you become a tightwad.
I AM suggesting that you take your time and spend your hard earned money wisely.

Kojak