Karaoke Forums

Ok, so my weekly gig just got dropped when the restaurant got bought out and the new owner wants a jazz ensemble 2 nights a week instead of karaoke, a piano player, and a classical guitarist. Oh well. I didn't know how long it would last but I have a few other gigs this summer (over the next couple weeks) and am already getting booked for next year (8 months in advance!).

Here's the problem. I have a setup that will handle a small room and interface with a variety of power speakers/amps for larger groups:
Fender PD-250
Soundcraft Compact 10 mixer
Peavey DeltaFex Twin Effects
RSQ/JVC Triple Tray
2 x Fender P-51 mic (sound better than the PG-58)
Shure PG-58
About 3000 tracks (Foundation 1&2, SGB 1-66, some VCD, DVD, and a mix of other discs SC, KBA, PartyTyme, THM, others)

I just got booked for a gig in May of next year for a group that comes through every year. It will be 250 women in a HUGE space and I just don't see the PD-250 getting even close to filling this space no matter how loud I turn it up.

Given the number of people and the size of the space (I can get exact dimensions but think probably 3500 sq feet for now), how do I best determine the wattage and number of speakers I'll need to cover the room?

For a single gig like this do you rent equipment or go ahead and purchase if you can afford it?

I expect to add all 5 bricks, and many of the SC paks (Party Paks, etc) between now and then. Should I start getting the Spotlight series and THM as well to make sure I have enough music to fill the time?

Sorry, I hit the submit button twice.

I would not recomend renting equipment. At the end of the day, all you will get is a warm handshake before someone else puts your money into thier pocket.

The amp power needed to fill a particular room or area is not a cut and dry subject. Sensitive speakers need less power than those that are not sensitive.

In order to keep things simple and portable you might consider powered speakers like JBl Ions, Mackie, or Carvin.
I would recomend speakers with a 15" driver to provide bass.
If you connect a speaker with a large driver to an amp channel that has a smaller speaker to provide mids and highs, the power hungry bass notes will draw power from it.

I don't know how much powered JBLs cost, but a couple of years ago I got a quote on the two-way powered Mackies with a 15" driver, (SRS 1500), $1500 each. 12" two-ways, (SRM 450), were $799. each. Of course that WAS a couple of years ago.
Carvin's 1540A 350 watt powered two-way speakers with 15" drivers cost $400 plus shipping. The Carvin 1542A powered monitors cost the same, but you'll lose some of the bass responce.
The 1542As have a frequency responce of 65 Hz to 18 kHz +-3dB with a useable low frequency responce of 52 Hz @ (-10dB).
The 1540As have a frequency responce of 60 Hz to 18 kHz +-3dB with a useable low frequecy responce of 49 Hz. @ (-10dB).

I've heard the P250 used outdoors, and in my opinoin your PD250 with a 2 speaker supplement should perform just fine.
Since I was just a witness to the P250's performance and didn't operate it myself I can't recall whether or not it had a built in graphic EQ for its preouts, (EQ just before the output to a second system).
If it doesn't have one, you may want to get one to help match your PD250 to the powered speakers or to the speakers and amp if that's the way that you deceide to go.

The more bands that the graphic EQ has, the greater its flexibility and the greater its chances are of driving you insane trying to adjust it.
Carvin has a dual 15 band EQ, with a rackmount design, for $170.

I recomend using mono for pro audio, since both speakers work together, but that's another subject.

Whether you use stereo or mono is your call, but if you use mono, you should be able to get a small, single, EQ for a song and a dance.
Take your time shopping, and wait for a responce from Lonman, he knows his sheet.

Side question: Powered speakers or seperate speakers/amp? Which gives you more flexibility? Bang for the buck?

FYI:
Mackie SRM 450 - $700-750 street price
JBL Eon (same wattage) - $650 (at my local retailer)

The PD-250 doesn't have an EQ, it has single knob for the mono inputs (think tone control) and seperate high/low controls on the final output and stereo inputs. It does have a way to put an eq or effects in the final output loop just before the amp. Only output is unbalanced (the one MAJOR shortcoming). At this point the PD-250 is getting minimal use other than as a set of speakers/amp for most of my shows. I'm forcing myself to use the mixer and have effects on the way (Peavey Twin DeltaFex) that I'll use w/ the mixer. I remember seeing a graphic eq at the local shop that was used in their studio for sale (it might have been a 1/3 octace graphic, but I can't swear to that). I'll check it out the next time in town.

That's why it was originally suggested to buy for the biggest venue you can reasonably see in the future, never buy for just a small room. You bought for the small room originally now you need more.
Now as far as powered vs. nonpowered is a personal choice. The separate amp & speakers can give you more routing options & expandability for future planning such as bi-amping & generally tend to sound better. However, the powered JBL's, Mackie's, Carvin's are all nice sounding speakers that will work outdoors just fine - the Mackies (SRM450) I heard at an outdoor radio promotion & they surprised the hell out of me as far as bass response & crispness. You still may not get quite the bass response & may want to consider a sub in the future as well.
I just did an outdoor show last night on 1/4 acre with 2 SP-4's (dual 15" in each cabs) bi-amped with total 2,000 watts & even those didn't project as much bass as I would've liked to have heard, but still sounded nice & clear from all points of the yard. Although I did burn up the monitor amp - oh well!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Remember this is for a show I've booked 8 months in the future. The PD-250 works well right now because I'm just not doing shows that large that require extra speakers/amps where they don't provide them. I'm just concerned about this show I booked before I realized how large of a crowd it was or the size of the space.

Funny thing is, when I told them I'd have to pick something up to insure I covered the space with enough sound he offered his P-250 to cover it (the next step down from the PD-250 - same wattage but Fender speakers instead of 'co-designed' by Bose). When I told him I had basically the same thing and it wouldn't cover a 250 person crowd he was surprised and has offered to cover the rental if I need it.

Has anyone had a powered speaker fail? How often?

How about having amps burn up/cut out/overheat?

Any models of amps you'd recommend?

Powered speakers besides the Mackie and Peavey?

Had a monitor amp blow last night. I've blown speakers in the past, i've blown main amps in the past. It's a part of the business that will eventually happen - especially the higher you turn them up to compensate for crowd noise, you run a higher risk - especially with lower wattage amps because they will tend to start overheating, clipping & distorting faster when turned up than a higher wattage amp running at the same volume level.

Amps of my choice - keeping budget in mind.
Crown XS (not XLS) series.
QSC PLX series preferably, but the RMX series is decent as well.
Peavey CS or PV series.
Just a rule of thumb, buy double the wattage of your speakers continuous power handling capability. This will keep the speaker at it's best efficiency & actually lower you possibility of blowing it.

Powered speakers I wouldn't do anything but Mackie, JBL EON G2, Carvin.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Karaokemeister, you're in Alaska, you may want to look at the Yorkville NX series of powered speckers and subwoofers. The speaker have a wattage of 550 and sound just as good, if not better than the Mackies at about half the price with a 2/10 warranty (also better than Mackie). The only thing ever to go wrong is a blown fuse once in a while when turning them on (usually when they have been in the cold while being transported, so bring them to room temperature before turning them on).

www.yorkville.com

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

If you do this the only thing I see you doing is a lot of duplication. the foundations, and all 5 bricks have most everything that the spotlight series and the party packs have.

After you get the foundation and bricks start looking at the later spotlight, to bring your music up to date. the older spotlights are gonna be a lot of duplication of the previous.

_________________
______________________________________
I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

I labored over the same decisions starting out this past spring. I wanted a system mainly for home use & playing small venues initially, but knew someday I would be expanding it into a business. I knew there would be a day I wanted to play to a large crowd, and not regret it. I decided not to go too cheap or too little.

Initially, I was torn on what type of amp to buy and what speakers to match to it. What a buyer's headache. Then I started thinking about going the active speaker route versus passive.

I decided to go with a Mackie mixer, DFX-12 (recommended by Knightshow). For the active speakers, I purchased a set of Yorkville NX550P's. www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=22&id=257. They are bi-amped and rated at 550w, have a 124db SPL, and are freq rated (hz) at 45 - 18k. They sound great & although I haven't noticed a lack of lows, I'll probably add one subwoofer to the mix at a later date. I'm definately not disappointed.

I also looked at the JBL Eon's and a set of Mackies 450's, and went with Yorkvilles. I thought the Yorkvilles were as good as quality, plus it had a two year warranty. The price was great too, I paid $1300 (shipping included) for the pair.

Good luck in your decision. There is alot of expertise on this board (Lonman, Knightshow, etc.). They know their stuff and they are willing to share.

When you get a subwoofer. Try a Band pass Box with either 1 or 2 speaker 10" long throw subwoofers in it.

I own a, 18" peavey Subwoofer, in a Huge cabinet, but the 10" goes to the shows instead. It puts out more sound Than the big one does.

and about half the price.

_________________
______________________________________
I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !