Karaoke Forums

Correct me if I am wrong here. Translate this to a PA system; this mean that the signal  from that laptop output is too hot and may need a lot of triming at the gain/input of the mixer. wold that not be a problem, esp when the gain knob is tune way left? Correct me.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

No, it's not what I meant... That extra gain is when I'm doing the mix in Cubase, that audio chip will NOT tolerate an audio file that has too much gain, you'll hear some cracking in the sound but in most finished mix or commercial music, it's just fine.

When connecting the laptop to the mixer, I don't see much of a difference with my EMU-1212m that I'm using in my desktop, just need to give 2-4db more on the levels and it's equal to the EMU. This audio chip has a very smooth sound and anything you play will just sound good, so, it's difficult to compare the quality of my mixing, but the good news is that most karaoke backing will play good, even a Backstage,lol!

Ok, understood. I don't use laptop for audio, for recording I have a Pc with SB card and now we also us a stand alone 16 ch recorder.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

It should not be a problem. If the signal is the wrong impedance, it would be a problem as the signal level changed. But as long as the impedance matches -- and almost anything does nowadays -- if it is in the middle range of your trim knob at all there should not be a big problem.

If the output level is extremely low, you do have to boost the gain on the input. If it is pegged, you could have problems adding some noise. But on a decent mixer, even that will be minimal.

I run my Sigmatel laptop chip into both Behringer and Alesis mixers, and in each case the setting (where the peak/clip light only occasionally illuminates) is right about center-scale. This  corresponds closely with the level from my M-Audio PCI card, and even from a Casio piano keyboard I connect occasionally.

I just don't see a problem with it, and I have listened. I will definitely listen again on Friday when I go to do my show where the Alesis mixer is used, just to double check. I am not a long-term pro and I don't have a "golden ear", but I think it sounds pretty good. I get compliments on my sound all the time, and in my (undoubtedly biased) opinion the sound from our stuff is better than just about every show I have gone to in the last 6 months.

Thanks mckyj57 and Micky for clearing some double that I have about the use of headphone out.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

[/quote]I agree and disagree!  Yes, you can spend more and get a better laptop but price doesn't always do it, for ex: You buy a Compaq, HP or Toshiba with a fast CPU, lot's of ram and lot's of HD space, but, you still can't choose to have a 7200 rpm drive, an onboard Audigy2 audio chip, a better monitor or even have XP instead of Vista???

I don't know how many times I've been giving this advise, why spend all that money if you can't choose??? For less, you can custom made a Dell with all the features you want and they will let you choose from XP or Vista!

Now, of course a higher price HP, Compaq or Toshiba will look better BUT, do you get want you really want or what they are trying to sell you???

I build my own desktop simply because I wish to choose what I think is the best and NOT what the branded company make more profit on![/quote]


Off the shelf, sales price laptops are the ones nobody wants so they blow them out to get rid of them.  You will not normally get a high quality, with everything you need laptop off a shelf in a discount store.    What makes you think you can?   You have to special order it from the manufacturer.    Then you can get anything and everything just as you want it and need it.    It's going to cost some money.     Not $350  LMAO  Add another $1000

The channel gain from any computer or player will need to be adjusted properly to make sure it's loud enough without clipping the channel.

Most internal desktop and external sound cards have preamps. Internal laptop sound cards do not.

A preamp brings the audio level up to unity at 600 ohms. There is a differnce between consumer and pro gear. The headphone amp brings the level above unity, is at 600 ohms and usable in any system.  An average  signal or consumer audio level can be amplified to a usable level with no problems. At normal levels noise is not a factor. However if a RF signal or audio is clipped then the original quality is lost.

From Wiki

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

I run a dell inspiron 6400, has sigma tel audio card, I at one time needed extra usb ports, so I bought a Toshiba PA3390U-1MPM about $100 have had it in line for about a year, 3 shows a week.. Sat nite I work 8 to 1 at 12:50 the sound stopped in the middle of a song, I did a quick check of why, found the mute lite on the toshiba on , pushing the button it would not go off, tried to acess from tool bar of pc gave me some message, no can't acess, by this time its 12:55, I was a little embaressed, I announced its quitten time and said goodbye to all... packed it up , next day at home booted up, everything is fine...I ran off the headphone output instead I think it sounds just as good,,, no more external sound cards for me..........

And what does that have to do with power to the speakers? If my mixer is putting out a line level that is the same, it simply doesn't matter what the incoming level is.

Most of the threads here have tried to explain this to you. You seem to want to argue that no one knows anything... if you don't understand what a preamp does...basically, I give up. Good luck with your earphone line...when you get to that venue where your hear a loud buzz over your speakers, tell your customers, that it's not a problem, that the way it's supposed to sound...

I think you have me confused with someone else. I also think you don't know what you are saying. I certainly don't hear a loud buzz over the speakers connected to the 2000 watts of power we run.

I am talking about output in a live sound application. I am not talking about recording. I know exactly what a pre-amp is. I host the GML website, if you know what a GML pre-amp is. Know what an RNP is? I do.

I have no idea what a pre-amp has to do with output. If you are talking about the input going into a recording, yeah -- I know what that does for you. But I am talking about running a karaoke show -- sans recording -- and the pre-amp on the input stage of an internal sound card doesn't have anything to do with its output level.

So basically, I think you are confused, one way or another. I know what noise is. I know what a pre-amp is. But the pre-amp on a soundcard has nothing to do with noise on the output stage. As I said, I was going to seriously look at the noise difference because you felt so strongly about it. But it *still* doesn't have anything to do with power going to the speakers. The mixer completely insulates the PC from that, as you should know.

If you can show me the signal chain in a block diagram whereby a pre-amp on a sound card will make a difference in the line level going to the amp, I am certainly ready to look at it. But until then, I will continue to believe the Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

If you think about the space inside your laptop for the components of a "sound card", and the inherent problems with heat, and sheilding that come with that limited space, then add a hard drive motor, fan motor(s) dvd or cd drive motors, power supply, etc. all crammed in that little space, add to that heat that is generated by the components, and doesn't that alone tell you there are engineering problems with producing a "quality" intenal laptop sound card? The components themselves are limited, so most internal sound cards are "bare bones". Sure they advertise Audigy internal cards, but most are a limited scaled down version of the one that people are used to. I haven't found an internal laptop sound card that sounded any good. Again, this is subjective, in that I expect high quality sound, and won't accept something short of that, if there is a reasonable solution. We're willing to pay thousands for speakers amplifiers and mixing boards, but God forbid we might consider a higher quality sound card than the trinket in our laptop. It works just fine, why should I change it? Well, we tried to give you some reasons to consider why you should, but you are convinced that the card in your laptop is just fine. My experience is quite different from yours, so much so, that I refuse to use a laptop to run my shows, except as a back-up. A small form factor desk top is a much better choice in my opinion, because you can upgrade cheaper, and it is simply more stable. A top quality sound card for a desktop is not hard to find, and not much money. Mine is mounted in a Gator Rack case with a Server keyboard tray with flip up LCD monitor, and it is tough as nails as well.

As far as explaining the preamp, you should take the time to read up on some of the pro audio sites, particularly ones that are using laptop computers. Also most of the sound card companies list the components and performance on their websites. I don't want to get into a technical discussion, because I really am not an expert. What I know is that the tests that I ran for my own understanding were quite dramatic. I found the Dell internal to be lacking in a number of ways, not the least of which was a very sharp tinny sound quality, and an output level that was half of the externals I used. All of these issues can be overcome to some degree, by mixing, but why should you have to do that? The test was run with flat equalization, and no extra gain. If you say that you can "make" your internal card sound good, then I would agree to some extent, but again why should that be nessesary?

Does the sound from an external sound card sound better than when you use discs and players?   My laptop sounds the same as when i used discs.  So why do i need an external sound card?

Sidewinder,

You know this is a whole different area of the discussion. I have trouble believing what you said, because if your running MP3+G, and saying that it sounds just as good as a CD, that is hard to get a handle on. I start to wonder if some of the sound systems themselves are lacking, because an MP3 is a significantly reduced file, and there should be a noticable difference in sound quality. That is part of my issue, as I run my DJ shows with music videos, which are recorded with CD quality sound, and there is a big difference between them and the MP3's.

This again opens a can of worms so to speak, in that people will say there is no difference between MP3 and CD's. But there is.

I guess people are so used to degraded sound quality, we only measure loudness  :shock:

There may very well be a slight degree of sound difference between the actual disc and the rip.  But is it enough for the normal human being to hear?   A highly trained ear possibly could, but Joe Average bar drunk singer, i think not.   An external sound card can not perform miracles.  It can not make a recording sound better than the rip.   It can not add anything to the music that wasn't there.    Will the average sound card give you everything that is actually musically there?   If not what percentage can't it deliver?   1%, 5% 15%????   All subject to conjecture.    If i think it sounds good, it must.  I'm pretty picky about my sound.

Since the rip is not 100% of the CD quality and the sound card can not (maybe, maybe not) reproduce 100% of the sound, will an external sound card deliver any better or worse?   Then is that little bit of difference (if there is any) that a dog may or may not be able to hear, worth the money to buy?

Sounds good to me..

Sidewinder,While I will agee with a good deal of what you stated above, I can only say that yes, a high quality pro sound card can improve sound quality and clarity.
If you know someone that has one on their system see if they will let you listen to the same song (or songs) by both the internal onboard sound and the pro quality soundcard....(they can switch back and forth in the "Sound and Audio Devices Properties" window)
I think you will become a believer.

_________________
Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

That may be true.  But i think a bigger consideration would be the quality of the PS system.   All the sound card in the world won't make up for a krappy PA system.   So if you want to run a cheap PA system and think the external sound card will save the day.. Save your money.  A cheap laptop is not the way to go.  A cheap PA system is not the way to go.    You can not offset one with the other.   The best thing you can do to get the best sound, is to spend money and buy the best of everything that you can afford.

I know I could tell a difference between the built in & the separate card I bought (internal desktop).  Night & day between the sound of the files being played.  I have a desktop with an M-Audio Audiophile 192 & the difference in sound between the built in on the motherboard was undescribable.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!