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I'm still pretty new at this, but there are one or two manu screen logo's that don't last long on my monitor once I see them.

I suppose my point is in certain bars as long as there is alcohol,  the opposite gender (or something that resembles it) and something that looks like a television with a football near it, little else matters, of course some of these folks have car stereo systems that consist of a 400 watt subwoofer, and a Delco car radio for mids and highs.   If I were to buy a library, I'd wish to have the higher percentage of BEST song renditions FOR singers.  To put on some of these renditions assuming a person can sing would be something that'd really humiliate me.

Proper tonal balance in a stereo means sub frequencies that'd cause most over 30 to lose sphincter control and nothing else.  You don't hear the music,  you see the sunroof, and windows react to it. To some of the youngun's music means loud and expletives and rap.. A few bars are like that... Yet for "Singers" only the best when possible IMHO..

If it matters to me,  it matters to my singers.. Only a decent instrument accompanies them, and me at my best, piano will ALWAYS be tuned too !  In brief, it's never best to assume the listeners can't tell the difference, and as a result compromise quality in making such an assumption.

JMO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The singer is always right. But until you play them the 'wrong' version, you will never know what they want. The question is how do you make the decision as to what version to buy?  You can't wait for the customer to tell you what version is best; in most cases. So the decision to buy will be before the customer preview.

So label do count in making that decision.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

When I buy, I initially would be looking at who puts it out, then look at the disc as to how many songs might be a good choice for the club then do audio comparisons to each other & pick the best sounding at that point.  
If it's THE ONLY version available, then it doesn't rightly matter who puts out the best version, since they are the only one, that WOULD be the best version.

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OK,  I think it's Legend that caused some damage !  Only thing that would've added some icing to the dog poop would've been a lovely off tempo panflute to sing unison with.  At this stage in my life I assume MOST can hear what I can, and more.




That's exactly what I was trying to say,  but your english comp is now better !!  

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Please note:  I have never suggested that some degree of quality is not important to singers, but like all things artistic quality is "in the eye of the beholder".  Cueball said that he has a singer who prefers the MM version of "Come Sail Away", versus the "superior" SC version.  He concluded, therefore, that the singer preferred MM as a manufacturer.  I view this circumstance as a simple reflection of the singer's belief that MM version of the track is superior to the SC version, and not a reflection that the singer prefers all MM products regardless of all available alternatives.  Please consider, furthermore, that the singer went against Cueball's advice and felt that a different product was preferable to the one he recommends.

Yes, yes, and yes.  Everyone has valid points.  And within threads similar to this everyone has pointed out  exceptions here and exceptions there, regarding suprisingly bad/good tracks.  In fact, I now remember I won't sing the MM version of "Two Out Of Three", I prefer a Nutech version I have.  But consider this:  I don't remember the last time I sang that song and I can't ever remember hearing anyone else sing it in years, if at all!  So does it matter whose is the better version?

Sidewinder suggested we trust him as a the KJ to make the best selection.  I'm willing to trust any KJ in regard to a statement that he knows the best track to play for me.  However, is everyone of you familiar with the original version of every song in your karaoke catalog?  Is everyone of you familiar with every KJ track in your catalog.  And who has time to compare 6000 or more Karaoke tracks with the originals.  And if you needed the actual original to accomplish that task where would you get all of those originals?

I'll speak for myself.  I know a lot about the music of the 40's, the 50's, and the 60's.  After that I'm pretty lost.  I spent the 70's and 80's, listening to Oldies stations.  Since I entered this business I have made it a point to constantly listen to stuff I'm not familiar with.  But how would I ever know as much about the 70's, 80's, and 90's as I know about the stuff I "grew up with".  

So, where does that leave me?  It leaves me relying on my singers to tell me if they DON"t like a particular version I've selected.  And that has happened, but only on occasion.  Now, it could be just dumb luck that I am playing the best version 99.9% of the time, or it may simply be that few people are taking exception to the version I have selected?  

I know "everyone" enjoys my show from the unsolicited comments I get from my audience.  And among the specific comments is an appreciation of the selection I offer.  Nobody has made any disparaging remarks as of yet about the quality of that selection!  And if I heard such remarks after all of the time I attribute it to "the eye of the beholder"

WELL said Eric...i have nothing to add other than... i would think it's a sad thing if someone actuallly new every song in its entirety in their karaoke collection..talk about too much time on your hands!

quote from ericlater:
So, where does that leave me?  It leaves me relying on my singers to tell me if they DON"t like a particular version I've selected.  And that has happened, but only on occasion.  Now, it could be just dumb luck that I am playing the best version 99.9% of the time, or it may simply be that few people are taking exception to the version I have selected?  
end quote

Or... It just may be that the versions you play are passable reproductions of the songs, and thus, the Singer is happy with that (and has no cause or urge to complain about it). Keep in mind, some of us here seem to have redirected this topic  into two extremes... either you have the best version of a song, or the worst version of a song. Nobody seems to have touched upon the other versions that may be just plain OK.

Trying to get back on track with your openning line for this topic thread, I think that once they've been given a taste of different versions of the same song which they sing, Manufacturer brands do matter to the Singers. And that really is what it boils down to.

Aah, well put Cueball!  You've actually identified one of the nuances of my positiion, there is plenty of "middle ground" that is acceptable to the masses (both audience and singers).

But the title of my thread does not support the position that a singer's preferance for a particular track can be interpreted to reflect a preferance on the part of that singer for the manufacturer of that track.  Going the "other way", the title of this thread was based upon the appearance on this forum that there are some who believe that most singers look through your catalog expecting to see a COLLECTION of discs mainly comprised of SC and Zoom and CB or, maybe even Legends.  I'm saying, not so!

I'd also like to suggest that the singers, who we all agree should have the last word, may NOT choose to always avoid: SGB, or MM, or Legends (which my local Karaoke store is "high on"), or Backstage or.....  

Speaking of Backstage, as a singer I prefer their Billy Joel disc.  Mine coincidentally got damaged around the time Hamsamwich bought a copy which he complained about in some thread herein!  I bought the disc from him.  We both were winners; we both were happy.  Again "the eye of the beholder"

I have heard and listened to thousands of karaoke songs over the years.   Many from other peoples discs.   I have heard versions that really suck.   I have heard really good versions.   My judgement, as yours has to count for something.    I spend lots of time comparing song versions.   Side by side.     I listen to the instruments.  The fullness of the music.   The lyrics for correct words.     What sounds close to the original.     The length of the song compared to the original.    The correct timing.    I don't assume any manfacturer has them all correct.  Because lots of times they don't.   So my ear is the final say so for what appears in my book.   But if you only have one version (and this has happened) and someone tells me it's not very good, i'll ask why?    What was wrong with it and get specific.    Timing, wrong words, too slow, too fast, the instrumentation, what?      If they are a regular and i like them, i'll check into other possible versions.    I refuse to list every version in my book.   If you do the odds of them picking out the worse version are pretty good.   I don't want to hear a bad song version and i don't want to play the worse version for the audience or the singer.

I would appreciate a KJ that can tell me, i was getting the best musical version.    One that is concerned about the quality of the version.   You make it sound like a crime.   Any singer is more than welcome to invest thousands of dollars to prove me wrong.    At my show i'll decide the best one to play.  Unless they can prove me wrong, i'm open to listen to your version.    I have made changes in my song books to edit in a better song.    I will continue to do it.

Just about everyone of you can name the KJs that have crummy song versions.  Do you want to be that KJ?   I don't.   That's why i'll be the final say.

There are songs that i am not familiar with, never even heard.  I'll have to take their word for it.  But you can always do research on it and find out how close it is or how really awful it is.

Sidewinder, who suggested that any KJ stick with "crummy versions" of songs?

Per Ericlater just four posts before this one:


You're clearly blessed to have such extensive knowledge of over tens of thousand of original songs.  Probably with duplicate karaoke tracks in play, your review resulted in your listening to over 10,000 total karaoke tracks.  For me to accomplish the same I'd have to listen to the originals.  That would require that I have about 6000 original tracks.  Then, I'd have to listen to every karaoke track (maybe more than once) along side of the original.  In total, I guess, I'd be listening to at least 16000 tracks?

PS:  I remember having a "debate" with another member, BD, who insisted he new how every song went and was the final arbiter of what version in his catalog was best.  Oh, and he'd like to tell others that while his approach was "Professional", theirs was "just good enough for Karaoke".  Or was it really that their approach was NOT good enough for karaoke?

eric, take sidewinder's posts for the flavor that they are in. He refuses to divulge where his shows are, so when he says he's listened to "thousands"... take it for what it's worth. He refuses to prove anything, so that's all I have to say about that.

As for the comments about the Disc Manufacturer is NOT THAT important to singers, I'd say it's more like "for the majority".

Understand that we who post on forums are the minority. Obviously!! Most cities have several karaoke bars, a few karaoke companies, and they usually have enough singers to fill their venues. Every night.

The law of averages shows that most probably don't care.

I WILL say that I personally DO own a few SGB discs... many I replaced over the years, but there are a few tracks that I actually prefer. Same thing with Music Maestro, Legends/Sunfly, DK, Pioneer, SC, STTW, etc...

Many times I've had customers compliment me on my music tracks. Because I've had a klinker or two and went "OMG, THAT one's gotta GO!" So many of my new disc purchases or track purchases were to replace a monthly track or a SI or SO track that just blew chunks!

More importantly TYPE of bar. Size of bar (amount of background noise) while singing, Is it a bar or a wedding or smaller different type function (the KJ is entertaining at), actual interest in SINGING vs just being on stage given ages of patrons, genres, class of patron participating in music, AGAIN, LOCATIONS meaning demographics..  

Problem is people here in these examples, tend to use THEIR places of work as the gage, or as a microcosm of "Karaoke"  and  what it means to be a "KJ", is if ONE persons place of work becomes the Gold Standard without consideration for what is very important which is the vast and numerous DIFFERING venues KJ's work in.   These topics without explanation of type / size/ location/ actual interest in activity/ actual interest in SINGING vs being on a stage, and aspects of the actual venue can not be lumped into one category that's a fair representation of "People singing", in fact such discussions take forgranted things that are VERY important yet usually overlooked meaning one persons venue might really be into and know their music, GO to sing,  few might be obliterated on alcohol, whille another KJ's venue might be a place that happens to have karaoke, but few participating really care that much about SINGING, but instead consist of young rowdy kids in general that don't care as much about anything as long as the are on stage.  NOT all places you folks work at are the same, so the generalization within the post topic in an area that should not be generalized lends itself to more polarized opinion on the matter (seemingly black white posting).

is it a dive that happens to have Karaoke ?  or an older smaller more quaint lounge with fewer that DO know and love their music ?  MEANING: Interest in MUSIC, KARAOKE in that bar while bar one town over might have numerous other activities going on simultaneously and rather than 20 mellow adults have 300 rowdy kids,   I keep getting back to this because IT MATTERS.  Is this a bar in the Nashville area where those singing know and love their music ?  Or a place up here where kids want to scream expletives and rap while drunk..  

Venue type of employment AGAIN matters !  Some don't appear to realize that there are huge differences in types of places they are hosting entertainment, and are comparing apple to orange patrons.  Not all places of employment have 200 kids at 12AM saturday night, with a *mean average* age 22-blue collar type in central Ct, and even within central Ct there exist the more urban locations and coffeehouse quaint enivronments..

This is what lends itself to such extremes when generalities are presented.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steve K

Thanks so much for a really significant, well thought out post  

And let me say again, "eye of the beholder"

Even that is general Eric, meaning in a mature location, or one musically orientated, the beholder might have "ears" and care about smaller nuances/ intricacies that might NOT matter in certain other type venues, so is it safe to generalize and have a half-a##ed library, or attempt to pick best rendition as the entertainer ?  I maintain the entertainer that believes "Rendtion is of less importance" and applies such an attitude is one that doesn't care as much about music, singing, and at some point will be called on this (since he is afterall furnishing background music to singers assuming he works versatile locations), and similarly Nothing matters to "the beholder" assuming most are deaf, or can't hear the backing due to lousy mix and background noise also simultaneously going on..

So should the KJ as the entertainer make the assumption "The DISC Manufacturer is NOT THAT Important to Singers" as a generality based on HIS limited experience, when in certain other groups elsewhere intricacies DO matter, and YOU as the KJ would not be sufficient assuming you lack the sensitivity to discern this ?  How about "The beholders" that have better ears, and aesthetic musical taste than the KJ ?  Such beholders exist !!   One must NEVER substitute quality shrugging it off as :eye of beholder: in an area of art assuming they wish to go far in their area and take pride in it.. Many listeners, and viewers are VERY shrewd too !

In cases of TRUE singers, I believe quality matters more than you are ascribing such a value to, but until you state the size of venue you work at, type of music most seem to like, ages, genres, it makes this appear to be apples to apples, and it's not, because the gap narrows in beholder perspective assuming patrons are mature, love music, sober, care to actually sing to good backings vs just being onstage... in which case the entertainer who cares and has the better ear, and library, and presentation MATTERS !

"Eye of beholder" to me does not mean one should EVER compromise integrity of selection shrugging it off.  Because in a group of singers selection and quality can be heard and most singers know what doesn't sound "as good" meaning this becomes less subjective, the gap of narrows and becomes LESS subjective..

As an entertainer showing a group of demented folk Karaoke for the first time me, Steve Kaplan might be considered the best KJ in the world.. In the Portland Oregan area calling Steve Kaplan A KJ would be something only the demented would do !

What the beholder perceives in YOUR venue, given only YOUR experience is what you are basing your post upon.   I am stating one CAN NOT generalize from such limited scope in an area of the arts and use a term such as :Singing: or :singer:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well, then Steve, based on your criteria every KJ would have to have the "best" version of every song, perhaps even TWO "best" versions, just in case some singer diagrees with the opinion of the KJ.

To acquire the "best" version of every song in our catalogs would require that we expend more money than we could ever justify financially!  Building our library didn't stop the day before we did our first gig. As long as their is new music, as long as Karaoke manufacturers release old songs for the first time, there will be an ongoing investment on the part of KJ's.

Hmm, just out of curiousity, what would you suggest that a KJ do when the "best" version is the only version available and the "best" version sucks?  Should we leave it out of the catalog all together?  Or should we tell singers when we are at a venue where the crowd is most particular that they are not allowed to sing it "here", but they can come to your other show where it is allowed to be sung?

And, what if I, as the KJ, happen to be correct in determing the "best" version, but the audience is used to and prefers a different version?  What if the singer likes a completely different version than either of us?  C'mon, Steve, none of us are filling Carnegie Hall here.

If you say you are just going to list all the Sound Choice songs or all the SGB songs and assume they are the best, you have nothing.  You have songs that you picked for everyone to sing.  Doesn't mean they are the best, but it's what you chose to list.    If you want to be good KJ then do what it takes.  If that means listening to lots of songs.  Dahhhh   Is your competition listening to songs to see which one is better?    Why ask the question if you have all the answers?

That's what i had to do.  Loman did you ever listen to any songs?   Knightshow do you?   Cueball?

Eric, in SOME cases your above example is correct !  In some venues the KJ MUST know his quality, mix, and make it sound DANG good for the Singer who IS a musician on a night off at a jazz club singing to jazz backing, or classical singer using classical backing, or the KJ is working a competition, small dinner club, etc, private venue, it depends on venue !  This is what I am saying.  Is this a singer that knows his/her Showtunes ?  Ratpack ?


See, it DOES matter in certain cases, but it DOES not in ALL.. One can not generalize because this depends on TYPE of VENUE, extent of work the KJ does, and how competitive the KJ needs to be ! which also means NOT every person supplying "just Karaoke" to the local dive needs to have the same quality at his 6 dollar per hour gig, or even be what most would call a "KJ"and this is my point.  If one is happy working limited young rowdy young bars where just being on a stage matters to kids that don't care about singing, one need not worry about intricate aspects the bulk of the time..

Depends on VENUE !

What I am stating is ONE CAN NOT generalize or make a broad statement based on your one or two large young similar demographic BAR locations. I personally as an entertainer ALWAYS make the concerted arduous effort to SUPPLY THE BEST I CAN !
not to sayyou must or need to to survive in your place of work.  One can only do the best they can to supply the best.. and even in such a case, the ability to mix and have discerning hearing as the entertainer will matter even assuming two KJ's have the same exact selection, the one with the better ear will win out !  Some folks DO hear quality Eric !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Sidewinder, join in and follow the postings.  I offered the fact that I don't know enough to consistently try to evaluate everything in my library. I'll add that to do so would become a fulltime job unto itself.  There are whole genres and periods of music I know nothing about!

Unfortunately, and that's my term ("unfortunately") I don't know what newer songs contain vulgarities (which I'd consider avoiding the purchase of).  So, I'm often surprised by the words I hear at my shows.  However, I buy my discs based upon the tracks I want to have and I pay absolutely no attention to the tracks that are unfamiliar to me!

And for the benefit of all, it is my belief and implied in my post that no one has the knowledge and time to review in an expert fashion an ENTIRE karaoke catalog if that catalog is of any significant size and contains all periods and genres of music!

Not all entertainers need ALL periods and genres at a given setting Eric !!  One must know their setting and VENUE  and they DIFFER... Hence my point.


Entertainer to some of us was a career, not a part time job !  Because in accordance with our times, and places of work, it was VERY competitive !  We couldn't get by assuming intricacies did not matter. Similarly I've been to the same type of sunday or monday night veteran pro-singer Karaoke gathering. You can be VERY sure this KJ had the best R&B renditions because on these nights the standard KJ was not included, the KJ was a radio personality-DJ-Engineer-Singer- and in his 50's very WELL known, and MUSIC was his life..

When I entertained,  I had to play EVERY SONG I played VERY WELL, and it was time consuming and stressful... My assumption is a KJ in competition, or among certain quaint groups if he generally furnishes music to a crowd that contains quite a few musicians will need to have a keen ability in certain areas

Sidewinders experience in HIS area, given his crowd, really might not matter much to you, or YOUR "beholders".  The two settings might be VERY different..

hence,  my point..


All furnishing entertainment ALL over the country ALL need different qualifications in accordance to their respective VENUE !

Yet Sidewinder DOES have experience, and if he states something about "the KJ" given different parts of the nation that he knows, I can't or won't refute his experience..  My statement is based upon what I've lived thru regarding "Ear of many beholders" given my career.  Only the best, presented by the best (in some cases).  Not all

A few examples of listeners that scrutinize are Jazz lovers,  Classical followers, IE Opera Lovers, veteran R&B older folk such as myself, classic rock lovers, avid Broadway lovers,  or ANY music lover !!

MY OWN theory is, when supplying music,  you are a musician.  Act accrdingly !

JMHO...  Doesn't matter whether it's classical guitar, Backing lounge piano, or Karaoke IMHO,  music is an artform that one should take pride in, and it DOES take time !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well actually I do listen to some songs if I have duplicates, but no I DO HAVE a life beyond karaoke & don't listen to every version of every song - congrats for living your life for nothing but!  But YES if I have duplicate songs I do listen between them & compare usually.  But then again, I do not purchase duplicates on purpose & when one does come up in a disc puraches again, I will listen & determine which one I feel is better!

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