Karaoke Forums

Yep, Nashville certainly does decide.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You are so funny Mona!
I also believe that proper english enunciation and a cowboy hat makes not a country song or singer or rancher or whoever. The song HAS to have improper enunciation to sound country!
Take me for instance.....btw, I can't sing a note at all any longer.....gave up on it. After listening to my previous junk posted here at SS, I'm more than embarrassed to have ever thought I was really singing. . And country was not something that I felt comfortable trying to sing, although I have a natural twang to my voice.
I live in the city, don't have any country influences at all, but I'm a good 'ole boy.....who's lived in the city all my life.
Now, for me to put on a hat, start trying to sing country, wear that hat to work everyday (driving a semi locally, home everynight), and try to believe in myself that I really amount to something related to country, it'd be a joke.
This coming from my eccentric, schitzophrenic, judgemental OTHER personality.

A recent observation while at work.....there's this driver dude....stands about 4 feet tall, almost 4 feet wide,( in other words, shaped like a beach ball) who wears a 10 gallon hat to work all the time. Sometimes I see him waddling to his truck, climbs in, and all you can see is a hat in the truck...that's it, just a hat. I can't help but to crack up! He seems kinda weird too....never talks...just has a smirky look on his face. Matter of fact, they're all kinda weird at my new job....not very friendly at all. It didn't take me long to figure out to stay to myself, but being the friendly talker that I am, this is a chore in itself. Everyone seems miserable and it shows. And apparently, it's affecting me now too.....making fun of a fat guy in a cowboy hat.

Anyhow, my point is, everyone has their own interpretation of everything in life, and everyone has something about them that others see as weird or improper. When people frown at me, I always assume it's because I'm ugly. When women are rude to me for no reason on my part, I assume it's PMS (or that I'm ugly)

To each his own. Live and let live....even if it's in a fantasy world. Music will survive with or without us.
I'd prefer they keep the "twang" out of a rock song though....it just ain't right!

Western music may have come out of Texas. IMO there is a distinct difference in Western music and country music. I call western music campfire music. Usually tells some sort of story bout the life of a cowboy. Then there is western swing which is also different from Country or western. It has an uptempo jazz sound to it . Bob Wills popurlarized western swing many years ago and has been kept alive best probably the group Asleep At The Wheel. I think there are just so many different spins on the so called genre country today that you can make country music any thing you want it to be. My kids idea of country music is completely different than mine.

You can sit here and yack about it until the cows come home. When I come into your bar you will hear country. OLD COUNTRY!! Hank Snow Hank Wiiliams Lefty Frizzell. Porter Rodgers Jones Young Twiitty Acuff Cash Wells Wagoner McBride Etc

Yes I sing them all and whether the audience is teens or oldtimers I turn them on.... I SING COUNTRY BIG TIME!!! I can walk into any bar here and sing It Dont Hurt Anymore and the audience will go nuts!!! I will show you what country is Then I will turn and sing Summer Wind by Sinatra... Dont try to tell me what Countyr is!!!! I dont sit here and analyze it I sing it...

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Well, remember the 70's term Rockabilly ?

Right Phil, but ALL "Country" essentially is considered "Porch" or "Campfire" music, Nashville, and LA in turning it into big business sort've added bells and whistles so now like so many other styles you have "Country" (which by nature might've been "unplugged" style, and Country-Rock which is electricfied, orchestrated, and often has a pedal steel.. Pedal Steel pretty much entered the pop-music realm in the late 1960's, and of course with the exception of groups such as (originally jug-bands) The Grateful Dead, the steel guitar, dobro, etc were pretty much categorized as "country" instruments. I think the difference is traditional country is more "old time", folk-style and the story of course always change in accordance to geography, Country Western seems somewhat "harder" a style in lyrical content, a rougher less sensitive style IMHO.. but that's because I believe Western Country became less rural or crude in style and was produced in the cities, likely had more money behind it. Of course John Denver, and Bonnie Raitt are pop-country. So many styles.. What would you consider Bonnie Raitt ? Commercialized pop 40 country-rock featuring slide guitar playing ? Her father was quite good !

Much of electrified country in the 70's was termed "Rock-a-billy". Yet by origin, appalachian/southeastern country was a "hillbilly" styled music. Vince Gill, and related folks also likely have alot to do with the folk-rock crossover.. Remember Pure Prairie League from the mid-70's ? Quite Country sounding, gorgeous album I still have "Bustin Out". While PPL was pretty sensuous and quite well orchestrated I'm not sure I'd consider them to fit the stereotypical "Country Western" style, but they of course certainly weren't appalachian folk either.. I think country-poprock really had it's own place in rock for a while, and we already (when covering it) referred to it as such "Country Rock". Look at it's origin going WAY back in 60's and 70's rock.. Skynyrd is what you might consider "Southern Country Rock", much of this music was produced in Atlanta. How about Charlie Daniels ? He certainly tells the country story ? Some of the Allman bros, Molly Hatchet is quite electrified with obvious country roots. Going north "Ozark Mountain Daredevils", Black Oak Arkansas... Now Rossington Collins although more "rock" was still heavily country influenced...

I really think "Country" during a period (and in locations of strong racial segregation) was "white mans blues". It'd be nice to see that bridged and have music no no color, but similarly Afroamericans do hold a title to blues styles and All I can think of that separates "Country pop-rock" today *as I stated* from R&B is the source of the music. If the artist is from the country, or a rural area, their style if heavy ballad will certainly be :country:, if a black musician puts out a song that's poignant with a strong real life story it will likely fall into R&B.. If it's different, like Seal, and sort've what we called "mellow sensuous" style it'll get lumped into new age.. "Slow Rock", "rock-a-billy", and Ballad rock just are passe terms. Was Country rock as a term done away with and all categorized given airplay these days as "Country" ? Country has become VAST when you think about it.. If it's not blaring rock, and the artist isn't from LA or NYC but a less rural area and there's a message, the style is likely country...Branson, Nashille, Austin... The trend today is :Country:..Seems the recording labels are looking for it more-so these days for business reasons !











Let us hear this skill then ! Until such a point it's talk.

Some of us DO desire, and will continue to desire to learn about the music we are interested in ! Learning about music aint a bad thing ! Also credit where credit is due- Meaning to the originators of a style. They should never be forgotten.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think not. My own feeling is folk music and Urban is more of an oxymoron. Pete Seger, Woody Guthrie, even Alan Sherman styled Folk Parody certainly doesn't deserve such blasphemy as to get categorized as a style of folk music anymore than the "turntable" deserves a place as a musical instrument that has a chair in the percussion section of a band or orchestra. I think if we are going to allow ourselves to speak that generally. We might as well call ALL Western music "Folk", yet certain styles clearly can be deliniated from "folk".. "Death Metal" for instance and thrash are good examples that I wouldn't even consider "ballad"... Folk music like traditional country is more :acoustically: performed, perhaps Celtic styles or european, even american mountain jigues (that came over from europe) with a limberjack, bowed psaltry, dulcimer the spoons and wash-bucket or "mountain country" are both folk and country, yet when you get into music that uses repeated sequencing, playback devices and comes out've "the urban street" clearly to me this isn't "Folk" music by any stretch of the definition, yet the extreme opposite.

JMHO... (I don't wish to believe otherwise) HAHAHAHA

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia that made some great points. I like the last line where Louis Armstrong and Big Bill Broonzy give their definition of folk music, "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard a horse sing a song." The first sentence from the Wiki quote is why I was considering hip-hop and rap as a possible example of what could be called modern day urban folk music. This style even though displeasing to my ears does often talk about the inner city way of life good or bad. In a way folk music could have as broad or narrow of a definition as you want depending on what restrictions you place on the instrumentation and lyrical content.

From Wikipedia (so it's gotta be true, haha):

"Defining a folk song ---

Folk songs are commonly seen as songs that express something about a way of life that exists now or existed in the past or is about to disappear (or in some cases, to be preserved or somehow revived). However, despite the assembly of an enormous body of work over some two centuries, there is still no certain definition of what folk music (or folklore, or the folk) is.[2]

Gene Shay, co-founder and host of the Philadelphia Folk Festival, defined folk music in an April 2003 interview by saying: "In the strictest sense, it's music that is rarely written for profit. It's music that has endured and been passed down by oral tradition. [...] Also, what distinguishes folk music is that it is participatory—you don't have to be a great musician to be a folk singer. [...] And finally, it brings a sense of community. It's the people's music."

Recent research has suggested that the "folk process" may not be so simple to distinguish from other popular music processes. Early folk music was often written down and transformed by experts, even though they may have been amateurs.

Charles Seeger (1980) describes three contemporary defining criteria of folk music:[3]

1. A "schema comprising four musical types: 'primitive' or 'tribal'; 'elite' or 'art'; 'folk'; and 'popular'. Usually...folk music is associated with a lower class in societies which are culturally and socially stratified, that is, which have developed an elite, and possibly also a popular, musical culture." Cecil Sharp (1907)?, A.L. Lloyd (1972).
2. "Cultural processes rather than abstract musical types...continuity and oral transmission...seen as characterizing one side of a cultural dichotomy, the other side of which is found not only in the lower layers of feudal, capitalist and some oriental societies but also in 'primitive' societies and in parts of 'popular cultures'." Redfield (1947) and Dundes (1965).
3. Less prominent, "a rejection of rigid boundaries, preferring a conception, simply of varying practice within one field, that of 'music'."

Some consider "folk music" simply music that a (usually) local population can - and does - sing along to. Much modern popular music over the past few decades falls into this category. Jack Knight, a modern songwriter, defines a "folk song" as any song that when played or performed gets people's lips moving in unison. Jazz musician Louis Armstrong and blues musician Big Bill Broonzy have both been attributed with the remark, "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard a horse sing a song."

You brought up something I have pondered many times and I guess to answer the original post( and only in my opinion) Anyone can sing a country song- but they may not make it sound "country" Just like Reba is famous for redoing classic R&B songs( sunday kind of love- etta james, respect-arethe franklin, Superwoman, etc)Or how bout Willie Nelson singing "georgia on my mind" and "stardust"- they are NOT country songs- but when willie sings them they become as country as red eye gravy! Both of them make an R&b/jazz song "country" ...by the same token Patti Labelle redid Reba's song "Does he love you" and it certainly isn't "country" I even subbed the eagles "desperado" and felt like I needed to apologise to the "country" fans because I couldn't sound twangy if my life depended on it( Ok MAYBE if my LIFE depended on it) but it wouldn't be easy....I think country is a style of singing just as R&B, pop, latin and jazz are- a song can cross boundaries to be any of the above with the right arrangement and singer. Just my 2 cents

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Well. Let's see the droves of kudo's and standing ovations eminem receives when he shows up at a folk music festival

It'd sortuh be funny to see how rich I'd get if I got a nickel for each compilation of folk enthusiasts that had the following three favorites folk singers on their list



1) Kingston Trio
2) Woody Guthrie
3) Eminem


To best appreciate Folk Music, you need to understand the feeling behind the truly great folk singers.. Take Ross Perot for instance
http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... /bf12d32d2

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

While I understand you are repeating that definition Don, the problem I have with it is that "Folk" music implies in it's definition "traditional" or roots ballad style. I don't think in this context "traditional" implies ANY style that pops up anyplace. I believe "folk" music is one of the more conservative styles that does have exclusions based on the fact that the term was defined and still is accepted with names such as Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Jack Elliot, etc. Before you even get into "rap" style a first order derivation would be "folk rock", types of country, bluegrass but no matter HOW progressive you wish to get "rap" and "HipHop" is really as far from "traditional" even progressive folk-style as one can get IMHO. It just doesn't work.. Folk is a traditional/roots style and has it's names behind it already.


The Moody Blues "Search for the Lost Chord" is a trippy album. In fact alot of the psychedelic stuff from the late 60's early 70's was "mood" "spacey" or tripping music.. but does that mean we can call it "Soul" ? Courtney Love gave me a raging headache, and made me sick, does that mean she's "Mood" music ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

OK, Now I'm laughing so friggin hard my eyes aren't focusing from the tears. Can you imagine being asked to "play bass" at a folk music gig... showing up, and all you see is kids with hats on backwards, baggy hiphop pants, teeth lighting up and one kid pulls out a roadcase with a turntable and says "yo honky, look at my new Ax" !!!!


"The day the music died" comes to mind


Sure, certain categories such as rock, country, folk have become quite inclusive of many hybridized styles, yet they still are categories containing a style that needs to fall within certain parameters. Exmaples being "Fire" by the Ohio Players, "I like it" BT Xpress, and "Standing on the verge" Funkadelics just don't cut it in the Country music category ! Even though, just like other musicians they share something in common --(two eyes, and arms and legs and they live in the same country)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is pretty interesting stuff here.

Much of this has to do with how far one allows themselves to stray from traditional meaning. I lost a debate with an excellent debator over "The Turntable being a musical instrument", reason being, there are now actual scores that are written in musical composition for the turntable, and it's pretty much like a percussion instrument when used in hiphop arrangements. Also, If it plays music, it's a musical instrument in a liberal sense (whether it's a playback device or not becomes moot), however in the Traditional sense it's not an instrument like the Violin, Trumpet, Flute, etc that's acknowledged by orchestras and bands, however the Saxophone wasn't allowed in the orchestra for a long time either ! Because it was designed for Jazz which the traditional musicians considered a sloppy liberal style that allowed principles traditional theory doesn't allow such as parallel 5ths, and certain things that go against traditional composition. You can find a fabulous "fiddle" player who besides bluegrass is capable of playing classical music quite well, however if the "fiddle player" shows up to an audition for a symphony holding the violin tucked into his arm or chest as oppsed to supporting it under his chin, he will never get into the orchestra.. Somethings are just traditionally respected in all forms still, and for traditionalists to debate with those that don't adhere to traditional constructs can't get too far..

While all forms evolve, when the term "traditional" is used, it implies conservative.

ADDED IN:

I'm looking for an old 60's theory comp book. Baby boomers that studied music theory in the 1960's classically were taught that Jazz is "THe swamp" of music that defies principles of music theory.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

So while I've given this limited thought recently, I don't qualify to discuss "Country" music since I haven't lived it.. I'd like to hear what some of the older SS folk that specialize in the country style feel about this, Billy, ML Texas, etc.. What they believe matters MUCH more IMHO than what I think. We can research and study stuff, but living it is something very different and beats those of us out that have not.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Oh I agree, having hip-hop/rap as a form of urban folk music would be pretty darn silly and absurd compared to what folk music usually conjures up in one's mind. I'm just playing around with the broadest of broad definitions - "Folk songs are commonly seen as songs that express something about a way of life that exists now or existed in the past or is about to disappear (or in some cases, to be preserved or somehow revived)."
My little idea is sheerly hypothetical and not to be taken too seriously.

Now if a person needs to have lived a specific lifestyle or gone through a certain experience in order to discuss a genre of music, then most of us need to keep our mouths shut most of the time!

I just saw this "country" music video on CMT. What kind of alien, mutated conglomeration of genres is this song? This is just too weird! I think I'm done trying to pigeon hole songs and artists into specific categories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcaiyyuHLA

Country Music is NOT something uniquely American. Genuine “Country” comes from as far South as Australia. Folk, Celtic and other genres have had their influence on Country music.

We continue to hear excellent County Music singers from Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, UK/Europe and even from Asia. Daniel O’Donnell and Foster & Allen are World famous Irish singers. Yet, they also sing cover versions of popular American Country songs with their delightful Irish accents. If Celtic music has influenced “Country Music” who is to tell them to learn to sing with the kind of “twang” which is asserted as ever important? A singer who has confidence in himself would sing a cover song the way it comes to him or her. As Jerry777 puts it “I never imitate” Yet, though he doesn’t call himself a Country only singer, Jerry Hopkins sings some of the very best in Country music heard over these singing sites.

BTW, I just remembered that Julio Iglesias was good enough for Willie Nelson. The Kiwi born Keith Urban is currently one of the most loved Country singers. After having made a name for himself in Australia, he moved to the US only when in his late 20’s or early 30’s. When Ray Charles decided sing “Crying Time” his manager thought he was going to commit hara kari! We all know the rest of the story! Did Marty Robbins have any twang?

As far as SS goes, I love to listen to Jerry, Ken (a few of them including my buddy Crimson!), Clay, Tex, Neo and several others.

As for me, I get up there and sing a song like I wrote it and as if I can relate to the lyrics.
My “wanna” might sound like “vanna” and my “want” almost always sounds like a “vant” but hey, I won’t ever try to sing “If Tomorrow Never Comes” like Garth Brookes. Neither did Ronan Keating. I am proud of my unique accent and I will sing any song/genre which appeals to me.

Sing it man, sing what appeals to you and sing it like YOURSELF. Music recognizes no barriers – geographical, cultural or racial.

Cheers!
Ron

I think we're getting off the actual topic- the original post the way I read it and paraphrased it was asking if country was an actual "sound"(Ie: twaing and steel guitars) or ..if a song that was first a hit as a 'country" song- would always be a country song no matter how UN country the secondary recording artist may be.

I think you could safely argue that ALMOST any music you hear on the radio today has been influenced my many factors including various genres of music- celtic, rock, pop...whatever... but to put it in a nut shell I agree with the original post...I think to be considered "country"as defined by what the majority of americans would say "country" music is- it has to have at least a little twang.

so- even if a song has been a "country" hit on the billboard charts...it could be redone by a different artist and no longer be a country song. I'm remembering that song "I swear" that was a country hit in 1994 or so...and within a year a R&B version of it was also on the charts by a different group. I'm also remembering Dolly parton singing " I will always love you= COUNTRY....whitney houston singing the same song= NOT country! Who's with me?

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I can state somewhat matter of factly (as a guitarist that's played country) twang has defined specific areas of Country such as the "honky tonk" and even the "Bakersfield" genre of country. Rock-a-billy pretty much had "The Twang" from the onset. I seldom applied twang, or heard singers utilize much twang, in certain slower country ballads, types of country western swing, or a more "traditional folk" country, I've heard well applied voice-cracking without twang too. I think "it depends" is the best answer IMHO. Some of the traditional Country singers didn't have "the country twang", BUT some of course did.. I believe to "cover" a style that utlizes the "country twang", one must apply it tastefully, true, otherwise besides making a song "their own", a person has poorly covered a rendition where the listener listens for nuances such as twang in the vocals. So like many styles, when you cover a style already composed, I believe tasteful application of the proper nuances is important. Regardless of the genre. IF a singer wishes to "cover" a country style with twang and cracking, YES, I listen for it !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yet the term TODAY as stated, has become so ambiguous that "traditional" country and who owns "claim to it" if anybody confuses me, and besides being VERY geographic in it's style, much I do not understand. While it's generally accepted the style began in appalachia and the south even that is speculative according to some.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".