Karaoke Forums

yes, 1/4 of a lb !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

yes, 1/4 of a lb !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

little more than that dahlin...now tell me what the philosphy is behind singing nekkid?
you are supposed to imagine others nekkid to overcome your shyness not the other way round

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Heat and Humidity. Living alone I don't believe in wearing clothing when it's very muggy and uncomfortable. But, most importantly, after watching myself sing I tend to get somewhat amorous. The less clothing I have on, the a less stuff I have to tear off during those impulsive love making sessions ! Just how things are when you're touring ! Fast and wild life I tell you ! Look who I ended up in bed with just two nigts ago ! Who'd have thunk it !

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... /c61173dd3


(this is just an experiment, it SUCKS ! I was trying to get different qualities, I neve tried this)
http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/bfcc0383

you should hear the Rod Stewart attempt

I really want some gravel, but it aint gonna happen I suppose


I think I should probably take up a different hobby :/ This would take SO much instruction, to develop something that's close to a singing voice assuming I can physically do it at all.. Closest analogy is a person that wants to take up an instrument and join the orchestra but they only have one instrument to play and that's a crappy sounding kazoo... Just no seat for them. Here's the thing, a person that loves the register of higher instruments isn't going to enjoy playing tuba or Sousaphone.. I like the higher tenor register.. I will never be able to do it

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven, why not try subbing something here that you actually think you did well on? At least don't preface every sub saying "I sucked at this one, what do you think of it?" Is it necessary to give the listener a negative, preconceived notion all the time? Let the listener form his own opinion starting from a more neutral attitude? JMO

Odie,

Because I want complete honesty. That's why I won't sub in the showcase. In fact I want blatant honesty ! (barring my personality of course) Just on my attempts to sing.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

A very good point was brought up. RE: "Singing soft and blending". I'm working on trying to allow myself to (for the first time) become "the leading melody carrier in a band situation". It's quite a different psychology, and I get this image of bandmates yelling "My God Kaplan, turn that horrid sounding instrument down and don't upstage the musicians"..., it's true. It's just how things were in the real world Odie (as you know). If we weren't good at something, we didn't get to perform it.. So since these aren't performances but attempts at becoming..I can only progress if people are willing to help me go in the right direction. Still looking for a vocal coach in real... A decent one... Even assuming she kicks me in the gonads out of frustration, I'll stand a much better chance of singing in the upper register like Brad Delp !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Tried a different song than Elvis..

Neil Young :/

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/bac03655

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

OK Kappy...lemme say that "the letter " was MUCH better than I would have ever thought. I have a few things

One- laying down is NOT a good way to sing and the ONLY person I have ever heard do it successfully was Andrea Bocelli( and he did it to prove he could) Not sure where you heard that laying down would help you relax but trust me- ANY voice teacher would tell you that support from your diaphram is essential- so at the VERY least you need to be seated with erect posture- standing is even better.

My biggest problem with "the letter" would be that you were sticking to the timing of the words coming up on the screen- and thy weren't always in the correct syncopation with the song itself. When I have a student learning a song- before we start with the words- I make them hum the song or sing it all on a ba- ba - bah--ba bah ba ( any syllable will do) I want to make sure they know the notes they will be singing- and the proper timing of the melody. I suggest you go back and get comfortable with those two things- then add the words back in. I also suggest you do it sitting up- you will find it much easier- especially on the highr choruses.

Now for the good things- CONGRATULATIONS- this was the first time I have ever actually heard YOU front and center- and look what it got you- FEEDBACK I said I hate to rank- but I can honestly say that THAT was not as bad as you thought- I would say it was a good solid 3 you were on pitch and you sang the correct notes however hesitant they were- had you had the timing better - it would have been a 4.Had you used better support and a bit more strength in the parts that needed it- you could have even had a 5- a better mix along with all that would have been a 6-see where I'm going with this?

Now for what you are cabable of..I think a 6 is setting your goals too short- based on what I heard- you have a good ear for the melody and as a musician I know you know how to fix the timing issues. The two largest hurdles you have to overcome are your own insecurity about "being heard" and your hesitation to use your voice as an instrument YOU control. I think if you diligently pursue "singing" not as a member of a chorus or as a background snger- but as a soloist- you could honestly get to be as good and any cover singer out there. It's all a matter if finding the right song to COVER..that means the right range and style and IN the right KEY for YOU specifically. Yeah- there will be songs that will never be great choices for you( we ALL have a few of those- wink) But If you clean up the timing and get comfortable with your voice- I think you could easily reach an 8 or so singing. Remember- I said a 10 was only possible in a professional studio. And it'sNOT all about having a good range- it included timing, the arrangement, the mix, proper support, phrasing, intonation and timing. I haven't heard you sing alot bu... Just on this one song though - for you- I'm hearing singers like the lower songs of John Denver, BJ Thomas, John Lennon, possibly some Eric Clapton( but the softer stuff- raspy isn't you), Steve Miller, Clarence Carter, Van Morrison( again- the right song nothing growly), Maybe even some Jim Croce and James Taylor!

BUT- that said- you need to record like you did with this one- where your voice can be heard- (just sit or stand instead of laying down- there is a REASON you don't see singers give concerts laying down my friend) then compare it to the original and see what you think. If you're always hiding behind the track or buried in the mix of the background harmonies- you'll always be at best "a 3" So- now let's see what you do with it.

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THank you so much Paula ! very very appreciated ! Now I have a framework, or foundation of what to work on, where to go, and I am going to reread your helpful comments and process them.. Laying down was just sort've something foolish I was trying.. Totally different system. Any idea where you feel I should stick ? Baritone ? Can I edge up to second tenor ? Just wondering ? I need a foundation.. IE... I tried Neil Young up around here.

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/b8c3c015


Is it foolish for me to be pushing this stuff like this ? I tend to like to let my hair down and play around too.. but this MIGHT be counter-productive..

I have a question. Sharper, more cutting timbre when I tend to have a "breathier" hollow vocal quality (at least I think).. can I develop a timbre that cuts sort've like sine wave vs cosine... One is more precise and cutting, but I've got that hollowness I don't like... Know what I mean ?


Some people have a timbre that is strong and cuts, otherw hollower... Is the only way to work with "hollow" to sing softer ballad style lower ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

My own feelings on a few you mentioned, ESPECIALLY THOSE I LOVE.. JT for instance.. He's amazing but has such a signature timbre of his own with his nuances my own thoughts (and I might be wrong) is that my voice lacks the depth and cutting quality JT has... Believe me, I've tried him and would LOVE to capture some of his vocal nuances but I've found him deceptively tough for a "hollow" type voice such as mine-

Jim Croce, I little easier, I have done quite a few of his songs elsewhere, interestingly enough I found Croce isn't as deep a singer as his voice timbre seems to make him appear..

Gordon Lightfoot, BRUTALLY tough, I wish, and I try and try, he's got his signature quiver quality, or fast vibrato nuance, to cover him, well hopefully some day.

Joe Cocker- Will never happen, and as you stated, My voice isn't going to have that gravel, so I need to live with that fact.. What I like (and I realize this) is actually the damaged smokers vocal-rasp quality IE... Blues gravel, Burton Cummings, David Clayton Thomas, Gary Moore.. I've always felt I had a better voice for "choir" clean stuff, maybe areas of classical but I'm a rock/ballad type guy (at least I wish to be).. WOW, if I could get Bowies part down on "Little Drummer Boy" I'd be thrilled !

OK where were we-

John Denver- Yep, lower stuff is right ! I didn't realize how high he gets until I tried him... Went over like a lead balloon

As much as I like Glen Campbell, look what happened when I tried him

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... /c812126e3

I think he has an amazing range, and I wasn't able to hit his upper tenor area. or make the transition in voicings smoothly.. My voice is likely too low to handle Campbell. and forget Andy Willianms. I learned the hard way..

What bother me about this Glen Campbell attempt is it sounds like "sinus clogged voice" which is what I am plagued with... It lacks the necessary strong timbre, and cutting quality of male vocals IMHO.. too breathy a voice I have, and too heady ? Trying to explain what I mean here... it's tough...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think your voice sounde more natural on "the letter" "Down by the river" sounded like it needed to be maybe a half to whole step lower to hit the best part of your voice. Regarding your classification- I think you could sing either(baritone or tenor)- but those are normlly used in choral applications, or at the very least with classical singers. In non-classical music it' less about the classification and more about what works for you specifically. As a soloist- each of us has what I like to call "the juicy" part of your voice. It's the part that will normally fall in a similar place to your normal speaking voice then include a few notes either above or below it. You have to decide which that is for you..For me it my speaking voice then 3 notes on either side of that- for Vikki- I think it's her speaking voice and a tad lower--it's the part where your voice has the most richness(or juicyness-wink) The juicy pary of your range is where you are in complete control of what you are doing and can play with the infection and intonation of each note. When I listed those singers in my previous post- you need to understand that not all of them are going to be in the most optimal key for you- you need to get a pitch changer and play with them. It will take some getting used to but will help you learn where the best part of your range is. Some like Neil Young- you may want to lower- some you may want to raise. Changing the key is NOT cheating either. All these singers are the canvas for you to base yourself on... but YOU are the paint- and what you cover the canvas with won't always be white- (or the same as the original singer.... it's what works for YOU best!) get what I'm saying.

Also regarding the comment you had about "having to falsetto" the chorus on neil Young... you said it like you were embarrassed about going into falsetto- but there isn't anything wrong with that- but I will say that one of the hardest things any vocalist will learn is figuring out where YOUR voice needs to break from chest to head- there is usually a 3 note span that you can hit either way(chest or head) ***so when you are looking at a song to sing- make note of the parts where that song hits that span and plan your chest to head break around the phrasing. But don't feel like you're cheating if you falsetto- it's a valid part of almost everh singers range( some choose not to use it because it doesn't fit the style they are after) but it's not "cheating" so you never have to apologise for it.

All the singers you listed just need to be lowered to fit YOUR range. remember- it's not about the key that THEY needed to do the song in....it's about what works FOR YOU.

*** a GREAT exercise is to hit a note chest and loud then maintain the note and soften and move into head or vice versa- it's hard as all get out- but will show you how to master the two styles and transition between them. The greater the difference between the loud and the soft- the better your mastery over your voice.

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I generally know if I've hit a flat or an off note and I really strive not to... but even songs where I think it's technically okay I have issues with listening to my voice - just cause I hate how it sounds to me. I sit and pick out ALL my vocal flaws... despite the fact that most my musical heroes don't have technical voices . I think it takes time to learn how to hear boo boos.... it did for me. My early recordings sound pants haha Good thing I sing because I love to not to try and develop perfection or I would have quit a long time ago!

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

I think you are correct in sticking to the smoother- more rock ballad type singers- at least at first. They will more closely resemble your natural singing voice and will help you master that..once you do- anything goes. Have you ever heard Earth wind and fires "reasons" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NnXIxSAa1Q
That's not even CLOSE to my singing range-and Phillip Bailey sings the entire thing falsetto( and my GOD WHATa falestto!) but i took it in the opposite direction and moved it down 3 half steps to suit my voice. I wanted it to be more sultry and play up the juicy part of my voice which it in my lower ranges( my version is in the SS) check it out-

then reconsider what each of those singers you mentioned as "not working" for you--what would it take for you to be comfortable with the song? Just because you can't sing it LIKE them doesn't mean you can never sing the song- you just need to make it work for YOU

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Thank you both !

I'm very familiar with Phil Bailey. I've heard them live (actually in 1979 a band I was with opened for them at SPAC- I was playing keyboards) Not sure if it was Phil Bailey or Maurice White back then. I don't recall... Thing is, can't Bailey achieve tones higher than some female sops with that falsetto ?


Well, I guess the first thing I must do is be able to HEAR what works vs what doesn't work, and for some reason it's tough for me to hear what most believe DOES NOT work when listening to myself which is why it's critical I have honest ears listening with some objectivity. Here's what gets so tricky, I still have that veil of hearing what I wish to hear myself do when I sing which camouflages what I am actually sounding like.

Does that make any sense ? I HONESTLY can not tell "what works", because based on constructive input, usually I am the least accurate (at this stage) of being able to determine what does in fact work... Yeah, it's a strange phenom, but I think as Operakitty stated, a person needs to learn how to hear themselves with some amount of objectivity, and I'm not that advanced yet.

Yeah Fiery, I'm at a point now where I'm just trying to support the notes I sing and focus on aspects such as singing diction, vowel sounds, and transitioning talking voice into a singing style... I let the off-pitch notes go at this point because I know I am able to tweak them assuming that is a genuine focal point at this stage... If I can support some timbre that isn't overly humiliating to me throughout most of the song, I sub it. It's just where I am now. I'm trying to transition my voice into a singing voice... VERY beginning.. and not quite so easy.... It also requires breathing technique, phrasing, and all sorts of different stuff.. Yes I am very critical of what I do, and I believe NOW is the best time for me to be that way, remain humble, and LEARN.. Learning to sing is VERY hard. I respect that. Especially when the "natural" aspects some have weren't gifted.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Edited dup post

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

See, Singers such as Taylor, and Lightfoot have their vocal nuances that even when the songs are sung quite accurately by others, IMHO (and this is likely a method of self-torture or running before I can walk), to sing those artists hearing those artists in my mind as I sing, yet due to inability (not lack of desire, but DIRE desire to replicate them) when hearing the result omitting their nuances or not even coming close leaves me playing back my attempts and thinking "blech" meaning I am trying to cover them, but lacking the ability to do-so, and the contrast makes the attempts a fiasco.. Does that make sense ? I'm really trying so hard to cover those I sing... It's aggravating. I suppose I'm going to have to recondition myself because unlike musical instruments, my voice can't be purchased on Musicians Friend to improve what I'm stuck with...

I relive James Taylor singing while I sing, and when I play back what I've achieved I'm appalled


I think this might be a problem for many that have spent the bulk of their lives listening, processing, and assimilating to reproduce in music.. While a relatively new musician in popular can come somewhat close to reproducing areas of instrumentals using FX and similar instruments, this isn't so easy for a non-singer who's trying to learn to sing using the original artist as a reference point or standard for "How the result should be". Creativity and newness is difficult for me.


Does this make sense ? Have any of you tortured yourself with trying to be your roll models ?

I sing to almost exact Karaoke backings as the original songs reproduced excellently. So in my mind I AM the original artist when I sing... Then I hear some clown Kappy the wannabe but my expectations are to hear Kappy cloning Gordon LIghtfoot, to make the song complete (as the composition should be)...

and my God.... Kappy DOES NOT belong singing JT... see where I'm coming from ? I really try to be the lead singer of THOSE bands !!! Now those of you who sing can do the musicians and backing vocalists justice in leading the song...

My WHOLE life I was taught as follows:

"MY GOD Kaplan, go sit down in another room and let one of these great backing vocalists take the lead part, go sing and pretend with musicians that are in your league, not the bigshots" !!!

It was ALL part of the respect and humility process... Karaoke is SO different than the conservative upbringing and etiquette of musicians of my day.. THIS is why I'm ashamed. If you cover JT, you dang well better do it justice or hold your head in shame...

This is the TOUGHEST thing I'm trying to overcome as a musician, keeping it "Musically sound".

This is what I am going thru, and I don't mean to impinge it on anybody, it's just how things were for me in the performing arts..

MY whole life was that recitals are for folks such as myself, but the stage and performance is for those who deserve to be on stage, and when on stage you are being heard hence judged... So for the first time in my life (meaning since November of 2007) everything I ever learned up til now has taught me that I am making an (@$%&#!) out've myself... Karaoke is NOTHING that music was about for me up until I decided to try it and expose my voice.. so Vicki, to answer your question THAT is why it's even easier for me to appear naked than to sing.... What's coming out've my mouth is the crudest part ( I suppose that's a good thing though, or, at least I hope it's true...)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I can understand why the Showcase doesn't wish for musicians. It's actually "Karaoke Showcase", not "Singers" showcasing their singing skills (at least this is how the mainstream thought process is)..

Difference being..

Singing Karaoke vs using karaoke as a session training tool to become a better rounded musician. The two are diametrically opposed. Is there a Singers forum anyplace that's tolerant of we learners ? That's really where I should be... Some place where people can learn in a tough area of the arts and others are willing to respect that being a lower rank, and not a fantasy pro is great for those who wish to keep it REAL. It's unavoidable to start off a pro. But to become better and rank at all we ALL must go thru our hard-knocks and respect our places in a skill ! It's what makes the arts so spectacular.. TALENT ! Not all have it, some have to work REALLY hard and keep it REAL

OK, I'm over my hissy fit now.. Just saying that it's truly an HONOR to have somebody with a skill explain to those of us as beginners in an area we respect where we TRULY are, because the performing arts are not Politically correct. The whole audience can clap as tho we are a "10", but what real is real ! I will maybe in several years be a proud "6" in a singers realm... Realistically there's NOTHING more I should ever expect, that would be a gift within itself.. learning and earning our way up shows respect for the craft.. it's what I want...

OK, done blabbing.. I really wish there was more honesty.. what is, is..

Thanks again to ALL that have dared to be honest ! It's the greatest gift a person can give to a learner ! There's no shame in being a beginner if we keep who and where we are in proper perspective. Yet performing, well, I HATE to think that's what I'm doing... because I'm just asking for help to become a singer in time.. nothing more..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kap- ya need to get it through your head- at no point have I heard you say you want to be a tribute act...that being said- why would you WANT to sound like whoever the original is? They can teach you the melody and show you some possibilities for phrasing and the build of the song but as a musician- don't you want to be more of an arist? (more creativity?) Stop trying to BE someone else.

You're never gonna sound like. JT. elton, whoever....i think what you need to do is go find a FEMALE singer who has a similar range- learn the song and record it on your own- then you won't be expecting to sound like the original. Then when you get familiar with YOUR voice...and your REAL voice- not you trying to mimic someone else- then switch back to the male singers. You're never gonna get that ear to discern good from bad- if all you're tryingto hear- is "someone else" You're setting yourself up for failure if you do.

I'm gonna say it again- you DON'T suck! TRUST ME- I know what I'm talking about- but it sounds like you need retrain your ear....oH.... and FU(K those musicians that told you to "pretend" you were a musician- I had those that said that to me when I started...now I'm teaching some of their kids. I saidat the beginning- if YOU don't believe in yourself- no one else will either. I'm telling you that you have an ear= and you can sing on pitch...all the rest is semantics and practice. Find a woman singer you like and lets hear what you can do.

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Paula, you hit the nail on the head ! I am really comfortable singing gender benders, and feel best doing them !! Carpenters, etc.. EXACTLY what works for me... I don't feel as though I'm coming up short, getting vocally emasculated, etc... In fact, I can even conform my range to many of the female singers.. That is an excellent point, and I do feel there are fewer expectations singing a gender bender, I feel there's more leeway and they are more forgiving.. Regarding Cover or tribute musicians, it's all I know.. That WAS musicianship for me.. Not the frontman mentality, but a follower..


Paula, it's a relearning process. Music for me has been replication, NO creativity. I've had to become the backing musician in a tribute band. EVERY song I've ever tried to compose sounds exactly like the first half of one song I like, and the second half of another.. Nothing more.. I don't compose, I'm a playback machine who hears, and reproduces.. I know no other way. Honestly ! I was trained to play classical EXACTLY as it should be ruler to the knuckles and all when young, ranked on HOW it shoud be.. and after I dropped out've classical the best copycat got the best bands !

Funniest part... We think of tribute or "cover" musicians as being rigid and lacking creativity, and while I agree we do, I left classical because I thought sightreading Schirmers, and stuck with Hannon and Bach and not being allowed to go beyond, was tantamount to the artist just painting by numbers. So I developed an ear (which ironically does me almost NO good as someone learning to sing.. because I don't recognise anything I hear myself do) and learned to hear a song a reproduce it... I also learned jazz and blues improv.. scale technique, modes, and got gigs backing you vocalists up, but there was never room for KAPPY being the front guy.. NEVER EVER !

Point being, it's a psychological shift. VERY different for me.. Fitting in, and supporting was my life.. Not standing out.

See, VERY few in the pro music realm got anywhere with creativity. The innovators although talented were a whole different area of music.. My niche... Play your instrument as you are told or we will find someone else who will... You singers assuming you were the talented front folk called the shots... We played our parts but had to "fit in" a circumscribed realm, and we HAD to listen to strict format and FOLLOW.. and that's the key, backing musicians FOLLOWED !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".