Karaoke Forums

I agree with this to a point. I definitely agree that a cheap PA in the right hands can sound better than a high-quality PA in the wrong hands. Definitely, a high quality PA does not guarantee great audio quality. However, I disagree that in the capable hands of an audio engineer that a cheap PA can ever be made to sound as good as a high end rig.

I've been there. In fact with the band I work with most often right now I see it first hand. We've got two main PA rigs. A Mackie PA consisting of a pair of SR1530's and a pair of SRS1500 subs hooked up to a 24 channel Mackie VLZ Pro console. We use this rig for smaller venues. Then for larger venues we have the JBL rig with a pair of dual 18 sub-low cabinets and a pair of 4735's on top mated with AB1100A Amps and a Ramsa 24 channel console. There's no comparisson when you hear one and then the other despite all other things being the same. The JBL rig just flat out sounds better.

There's a simple rule I subscribe to in the audio world and that is crap in crap out. If any component along the signal chain is sub-par (including the operator) it will negatively impact the performance of everything else. I'm not a believer that you can measure quality solely by cost though either. Our Mackie rig for instance, while it may not hold a candle to the much more expensive JBL rig, when mixed properly that Mackie rig still sounds incredible and in fact has shocked us in a number of venues where we didn't think any PA could possibly sound good.

On a different topic, people have been bringing up the subject of reverb. Another useful tool in the pro audio arsenal that can be detrimental when used improperly. In most cases the reverb should only be barely noticeable. It should sound like like the natural reflections of the room not like someone is adding effects to the vocals. Now there are certain places in certain songs where more reverb or additional delay are called for. There are also cases where bone dry vocals are called for. In the end though if you don't know where these cues are, you're better off just running a static reverb the way I describe above. Over doing it will only server to obscure the vocals and make things unintelligible.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

The limited edition Audix mics are really cool looking! I've been using Audix OM2 for about 4 yrs now and love them. I have aquired about six of them. I found I could snag then ebay for about $40. I looked on Musicians Friend and they go for the normal price of $99. If I find one on ebay for less I may have to buy one.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Hi, My name is Jamkaraoke and I too was an old smiley eq type of guy.
Now that I'm in the 12 step eq program it has taken me awhile but I've been smiley free for about 18 months. By listening to people here ( like Lonnie) it took me awhile but Ive learned that LESS IS MORE when talking EQ and EFFECTS.

My additction to the smiley faced eq came from LACK OF power ( volume or gain) and trying to compensate for it by boosting the eq. Now I believe I am on my way to a full and long recovery !

EFFECT QUESTION?-- You test your system and do the check one check 2 thing in a quite bar. Then your show starts and you crank up the music and people are wailing on the mics. I can never hear the EFFECT ??...does that means it is set GOOD ?????...I know its there cause on pre check I heard it

At crowd level when room acoustics and reverbs are prevalent EFX is not really needed. Speaker placement and angle is very critical because at higher levels higher frequencies start to cancel or add. This is esp true in smaller venues with hard cinder block type walls.

At this point most of the things discussed here about rip rate etc are not as critical. I could make the argument if the host hasnt cranked up the crowd to get to this high energy then there is something wrong with the format. All of the karaoke worshipers and radicals here will argue with this but lets get real.

There are times to play at lower levels and ride the desk for good sound and other times to crank and party. After awhile most of my gigs turn into a hip shaking arms in the air lets danc e atmosphere. Jam if your gigs are in the hip shaking mode dont worry about EFX let the venue and natural reverbs take over.

It's hard to give advice on settings when you're not there to actually hear what's happening. The room, temp, amount of people in the room, the singer themselves, and the type of equipment you have all are relevant in setting your sound. We can give suggestions, but when it comes down to it you have to use trial and error to see what works best for you.

I still, after working in the same place for years, have to make different adjustments for each night depending on the enviroment. I have to say in my location the toughest nights are the nights I have a small crowd. It is a small bar with a tin roof. Not much there to absorb sound. Aaarg!

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Friends don't let friends sing dry. Even the most talented vocalist should have a hint of efx on their voice. Makes it easier to sing and it sure makes it more pleasant to listen to.

In reality no one should even know their are effects being applied to their vocals if they're done right. No sitting in the bottom of a well singing sound - that is just horrid. My test: Someone says they don't want any effects on their voice (because they've obviously been to a show where efx were misapplied) and I start them out dry...then very, very gradually run the effects up until the point just before they're audible. Singer is none the wiser, is happy because they sound great, and if they want to chalk it up to natural talent allowing them to sound that good, more power to 'em. No skin off my back at all.

Well said Karen !

Many times I'll have people come on stage and ask for a lot of reverb, make the music really loud, add this or that etc... It makes me chuckle inside. Almost all of the time I can tell these people have no clue what they're talking about. They think more reverb makes them sound better or if I turn the music really loud people won't notice they don't sing well. I always say okay and adjust them the way I think makes them sound the best. Many times I think to myself just let me do my job that's what I'm here for. I don't go to their job and tell them how to do it. I feel good about the fact many people come to my show because the equipment and sound are so much better tha other venues. I take pride in doing my job well.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

One of my fortes and I take pride in the fact that nobody (unless they refuse to follow basic mic tecniques) sound bad on my system. This is true at all levels and genres.

One of my learning experiences was when I asked a friend if I could store my system in his basement. It was unfinished, totally open and the walls were the typical concrete foundation.

A few weeks later we had a few that wanted to record so we set up in his basement. I put on a mp3 and turned it up. We both fell on the floor It was the most awesome sound I have ever heard. The reverbs were perfect at all parts of the room. The only thing was peaking the vocal proc. (Lexicon MPX500)

One has to learn how to use room acoustics with proper speaker placement and augment EFX with procs. This is very critical with vocals. Also I set the stage monitor acroos the dance floor back towards the stage with full EFX. THis works best with inexperienced singers.

I have had singers with no confidence whatsoever but were hams and always participated. After a few months on my system they were actually singing and improving weekly. Then they would go to another venue and struggle and lose some of their confidence again although they could sing better.

And that is the unique problem of the microphone. If it is lousy in any number of ways, the sound is impacted. All the great mixers and PAs in the world will not help.

Microphones and speakers are the most important parts of any system. The rest can have an impact, of course, but when well-adjusted and matched they are much less significant.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. I suppose if all you're doing is running a static verb on the vocals maybe you could get away without it and rely on the natural verb of the room. However, if you're actually using effects for their primary purpose (adding to the dynamics and depth of the overall musical composition) then I can't agree. As I said previously, there are many points in songs where the vocals should be dry and then in transition you bring in the verb, delay or other effects. Additionally there are times where obvious effects (flanger, chorus, phaser) are used to create an effect. Verb can also be useful in making vocals stand out from the rest of the musical track. Relying on the acoustics of the room works if you're only dealing with vocals or your playing in a well-designed concert hall. Otherwise I question this strategy.

Huge ampatheaters have plenty of natural reverb and reflection, additionally their line arrays have been designed and installed for optimum placement in those venues, but do you think national touring acts don't use effects on their vocals and instruments? Everything from simple verb to delays and other effects are a part of every one of those shows.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Is it wrong to run the MUSIC completely dry ??? Shouldn't the recorded track have its effect built in ??

In a Karaoke setting, the backing tracks should absolutely be run dry. You are correct, any necessary effects should already be in the final recorded track.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I do wish when you do all this disagreeing you would make sure what you are disa greeing with. I did not say use room acoustics for vocals I am talking overall EFX To me processing the vocals and EFX are different. Also it depends upon the venue in large clubs one can tailor EFX for vocals In small bars this is not always the case.

Well obviously I'm not following the terminology you use.

In general pro-audio terms, EFX would refer to any additional signals generated based on the incoming signals. This would include verb, delay, phaser and the myriad of other possiblities.

Processing would refer to the modification of the existing signal such as EQ, Compression, etc. Reverb does not fall into this category.

So when you say that EFX aren't needed in a room with a good amount of reverb, that to me says you don't need reverb or other effects because the room supplies it. I have to imagine that's how others read it as well. And since people do trust your opinion, I wanted to address that point.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Tony what you dont understand is my old western sense of humor. I can tell you it got so hot one time the popcorn in the field started popping and the cows in the nearby pasture thought it was snowing and froze to death. I have the feeling that you would jump all over the fact that you think that I believe solar power can pop popcorn....

On these forums I converse in generalities and not in specifics. Those are more suitable in a formal engineering report. I use loose definitions and dont advise or offer specifics because I dont have all the facts. I am an engineer but my specialty has leaned towards RF and video and strict PA or broadcast audio systems.

For 2 seasons I had the contract to maintain the closed loop TV and audio system at the doggie track in Loveland. I have worked on some expansive sound systems.

This theme is presented periodically and I explain how to augment room acoustics with EFX. Again I am hearing things about adding EFX or verbs and nothing about setting the freq or decay time according to the size of of the room or phasing with the natural room verbs. Either to cancel unwanted verbs or add desired ones.

I come to the conclusion the only way we could communicate would be a hands on and setting up in a real situation. Then we would jell and know what each other is thinking. WE cant have that first beer until we are about done.

Now I hate doing this much typing but maybe you understand better where I am coming from or going. My mistake lobbing procs and EFX together but your disa greement started off with vocals. THe only (I shouldnt say only) time I use EFX with vocals is with sonar or working with the vocal track only. Most of the time live I use procs and set the overall according to room acoustics. I feel in a live situation if you dont have the vocals decent at the mic fader then EFX are not going to help much except in rare circumstances which I dont have the time to mess with.

As a singer more than a KJ I feel I have to defend myself. I have never asked for more reverb even when I should've, and yes there have been plenty of times when I needed more EFX. I know the song I am singing better than the KJ a majority of the times around here simply because of the generation gap or because a lot of karaoke around here is country based and the KJ isn't familiar with the songs I do. . Songs Like " Again " or " No Excuses " by Alice in Chains require a ton more of EFX because that the way the vocals were recorded on the original song. Now do I want that same effect on Snow Patrol's " Chasing Cars " of course not.

Every song is different and maybe you can get away with a basic EFX setting and some mild tweaking on most songs, but some do require a ridiculous amount of EFX's sometimes to sound similar to the original.

I agree that it seems like a majority of people on here think they run their shows sounds near perfect and I just don't think it's so. As a singer I have more problems with KJ's having the vocals drown out the music or vice versa or the monitor way too loud so that it throws me off. Just MHOP. Rudy.

Karyoker, I think the disconnect we're having (if I understand you correctly) is that you're talking about EFX applied to the full mix to compliment or compensate for the acoustic effects of the venue. I was referring strictly to effects on vocals alone (since as mentioned earlier the tracks in and of themselves don't need effects applied). Personally I don't apply any effects (in the traditional sense of verb, delay, etc) I do apply EQ and compression. Vocals get verb in almost all cases and additional effects (or absence there of) as the song warrants.

Rudy, you definitely should feel justified asking the KJ to adjust your monitor mix. Any KJ who isn't willing or doesn't know how has serious problems. From years of running monitors for bands I can tell you every singer and musician has their own desires as far as monitor mix and I treat my monitor as such. I have a generally good starting point that I work from but singers at my shows usually know they can ask for more or less vocals or music.

As far as the EFX on the main mix, unfortunately many KJ's take offense to being asked to change their mix. Personally, I'll listen to what someone has to say, listen to my mix, and then determine from there if I agree with what they're saying and adjust as appropriate.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Then basically we are doing the same thing. On the mic channels I sometimes turn EFX1 or EFX 2 up a tad but not much. On the music channels they are about unity.
Photo shows seup from last gig. they could have changed a bit with transport but at a glance they look about right. Yea I see the faders way up on unused channels but they are muted anyway. And Lon can be proud the EQ is not smiling

1&2 stage mics. Blue slider announce mic. Red slider is Lexicon return. 9&10 background 11&12 karaoke. Sub1 stage mics. Sub 2 announce mic 3&4 music.

Now during mix down and mastering it is a different story..

set

Rudy, you definitely should feel justified asking the KJ to adjust your monitor mix. Any KJ who isn't willing or doesn't know how has serious problems. From years of running monitors for bands I can tell you every singer and musician has their own desires as far as monitor mix and I treat my monitor as such. I have a generally good starting point that I work from but singers at my shows usually know they can ask for more or less vocals or music.

Thanks, I just get tired of the attitude that all singers and bar owners are all a bunch of morons and don't know squat about anything. Do I have all of you and Karyoker's knowledge, of course not, I don't pretend to, but I do know what sounds good. I am not one of those anal people that thinks they are playing Carnegie Hall or something but it does help me to stay in key when my vocals aren't coming back at me at 125db. They are of course the extreme cases that drive KJ's up the wall and I do understand that. Sounds like you have the right attitude but then again that usually comes with being secure in your knowledge. Rudy.

Yup, I don't get this either. I can see deciding to do nothing and giving the pretend tweak, but getting snippy and offended? But they do, oh they do. Combined with not having anything substantive done as a result of requests, I have pretty much given up asking.

Of course nowadays I am tickled to even have a monitor speaker. I see one as a sign of a KJ who actually cares about their singers, and I might ask them to turn it up or down a bit.

Then there is one who I swear eqs me down to make my voice muddy. It sounds fine, then he tweaks and there I go back into the mud.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.