Karaoke Forums

Dr Fred...What don't you understand about this? We own this equipment and music! We pay our own taxes! We acquire our jobs on our merit! We don't work by the hour! THIS IS A BUSINESS. Try telling Gates/Microsoft that he is making too much per hour because his wages are a billion times the national average.

Mrmarog

P.S. I think this thread should be closed, because it is too rediculous to continue in the direction the Dr Fred is leading it.

All jobs have costs and skills involved. They all pay their taxes (or should).

It is just my perception that it is not that hard a job to be a KJ.

Bill Gates, for good or bad is the only market in town and has a monopoly on the market (for all practical purposes). That is not the case with KJing.

It's my perception that it's not that hard to be an artist (painter).
Or an actor.
Or a potter.
Or a cook (chef).
Or a lot of other things.
But many jobs command a higher price anyway. It's what the market will bear and what the skill involved is as well as investment of time and money. All these things combined determine the price a KJ can command.
Whether you think it's not that hard is immaterial.
Lots of other people would (and do) find it incredibly difficult.
Like anything else, it's all in the eyes of the beholder.
You're lucky that you think it's easy. Imagine if you didn't.

Okay, I have an idea what Dr. Fred is saying...

And from dr. fred's viewpoint it's true that you do NOT have to;

1. Go to a specialized school
2. Practice as an intern
3. Spend thousands on education or licensing

Basically, if you want to be a KJ, you can buy a few discs and a sound system and with NO special training or experience required, call yourself a 'professional' and have at it.

On that basis, Dr. Fred is correct....

HOWEVER... there's a whole different facet to this gem that he doesn't see: there is a difference between a "KJ" and a "professional Karaoke Host." And while they might sound like the same animal, there is a WORLD of difference.

Many of the "KJ's" that Dr. Fred is describing are what I refer to as "bar jocks" and I don't mean this in an unkind way.... it's just that they are perfect for the bars.... and you can't put them on a private party, corporate party, special event or wedding because they just won't fit. Not to mention that they probably don't have the eloquence needed, troubleshooting skills, need or desire to take on the private party market. It a LOT of work and a completely DIFFERENT set of skills (and yes, these are skills you can't learn overnight).

If a bar jock treats a corporate party like it's another bar job, they will be sunk before they even unload their gear.

In the bars, you have (usually) a willing school of "singing fish" that want to play with your toys... and your job is to make sure that they play fair, protect their feelings and that you make each one sound as good as you can so they will want to play some more... and bring more fish-friends next week.

A private or corporate party is different. The KJ in this case has to first win over the group they're working for and then make it so comfortable for them that they will step out of their comfort zone to go solo on a microphone.... not an easy task and no school to learn this from either.

All the while, the KJ must be entertaining all the others in the room or event. And this must all happen when the KJ is dressed to the 9's after hauling their complete gear either up and down stairs or over two lawns and up a hill, running 8 miles of extension cord to one teensy plug, etc.

It's a whole different dynamic and those jocks that do a lot of private parties and corporate events tend to do a little better in the bars with the patrons as well, however the pay in the bars is a third of the private engagements....

So... on one hand, Dr. Fred is correct: it not a hard job in the bars and there's nothing from preventing ANYONE from immediately competing with you on that playing field.... no license, no learning, no nuthin'. Just buy equipment and discs and have at it.

On the OTHER HAND, Dr. Fred is incorrect: if you want to make "real money" in this business, you have to get out of the bars and that requires a whole different set of skills you can't learn in a book or in a bar.

I should get paid $1,000 a show for having to deal with some of the bar owners I've met in this business.



KJ'ing is my full-time job for the past six years, I work solo, currently working three weekly shows, have worked as many as six weekly shows. It's good work, I enjoy it and I've met many wonderful people through karaoke.
I wish I'd quit my former "real" job in 1992 and started doing full-time karaoke then -- I'm 53, and I think my younger, more robust self would've had a ball! Also, the market was very different back then.
But I would never categorize KJ'ing as simple or easy. There's a lot going on behind the scenes that many are just not aware of. It demands flexibility and commitment.
Maybe the perception problem for Dr Fred is that a lot of good KJ's just make it look "not that hard."

Kudos to C.Staley in his post! Excellent and accurate.

And WHY are people here putting down Dr. Fred's opinion on kjs? HE IS ONE and KNOWS the dealings of it.

i HAPPEN to AGREE WITH HIM that it is NOT difficult to become a kj and NOT EVERY KJ has to be good. You need NO license, training, special skills to work a venue.

IF you develop better than average work, equipment, and people skills YOU should advance and make a decent wage/living running karaoke shows.

Karaoke PAYS WELL and almost anyone can learn to run a show! GET REAL. It IS NOT rocket science, and look how many BAD kjs and "shows" exist in the country now. AND they've existed for YEARS...how BAD were YOU when you began?

Dr. Fred doesn't seem to be putting anyone down, so stop taking stuff personally. He's simply saying IT DOES pay better than many other jobs and doesn't require a major education. TRUE. I've djed and kj'd for MANY YEARS and am semi-retired from it. It's been my life for many years and it IS NOT as difficult as my former careers in law enforcement, and the movie business, and PAYS MORE.

GEEZ...get off his back.

And JUST WHERE do you think he's "leading it"????

WHAT makes it ridiculous? Because he's voicing an opinion?

WHY should this thread be closed when it's NOT EVEN YOURS TO BEGIN WITH??

DID something HURT YOUR FEELINGS that was said? Are we not ALL adults here?

Further, no hijack intended, but I've personally taught college kids to be GOOD djs and kjs just by HOW they conduct themselves.

NOT ALL of them had the biggest personalities, knew equipment extensively, or knew how to mix music perfectly, but OVER TIME they learned to get better, and a few started their own businesses and became successful.

I BELIEVE that this "Karaoke Thing" is a HUGE SECRET to most people and THAT's FINE!

If more people knew just how easy it is to get started and had the least of people skills, they could enter the market immediately with a small investment, and make a living at it fulltime, at one or two venues,progressively getting better OR NOT.

I HOPE IT STAYS the SECRET it IS and the fewer that know the monetary potential, the BETTER.

C. Staley made an excellent post and hit the nail on the head. We are one year into being "bar jockeys" and I haven't had the nerve to venture into the wedding market yet unless it was an informal reception for friends. Lack of backup equipment and troubleshooting experience plus dealing with what could be a non-karaoke crowd are some of my main fears on that one. It seems like something we would have to work up to.

But even in our small dive I have gotten the picture that we are in "the entertainment business" even if we aren't the ones singing. It takes a lot of thought to keep things interesting and the crowd engaged. It is one of those intangible things that when you "hit it" it makes you worth some money. It is a lot of work and sometimes very wearing dealing with some of the personalities. But again that is with most any job. It's all relative.

Ok ok ok ...KJ's can ask for what ever the market will bear for that location ..SIMPLE?


YES --being a KJ is easy and only takes a love of the industry and a few bucks
Being a great KJ takes dedication and commitment that not all KJ's are willing to give.


It takes no skills to :
shovel poop --but Im sure it pays wells
Pick up Garbage the same
Play front line in the NFL --just need to be 6 ft 5 and 300+ lbs but you can make a $million a year

WHAT AM I SAYING ???? ...... I forgot

When I first started as a karaoke host, I had no idea about all the work outside of the actual show was, All I knew was what I saw although I knew about the load in and load out because I helped a couple of fellow Hosts with their equipment. But the work getting your books set up, I started out in Word before getting my first book making software, Thanks Chip. But it is work. I am in the process of editing my books to fit the new venue I picked up. That's coming about slowly.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Many of us take pride in being the best KJ we can be. No matter what your profession is, I don't think anyone likes to be told what you do is easy and anyone can do it. I appreciate Dr Fred's initiating conversation, but think I am worth more than $15 an hour.

I don't think I'd be doing karaoke if I made $15 an hour. $50 a night just isn't worth it to me.

Believe me I had to do my home work to be able to run a show. It didn't come easy to me at first. I had no background in sound or equipment. Many times I wanted to through my hands up and scream ! Learning to rip CDGs into a hard drive. Figuring out how to make books. Shoot just learning how all my equipment was put together and how it worked was an education.
Maybe this was easy for some of you, but it wasn't for me. All I knew how to do was sing. It took a lot of perseverance to learn all these things I had no back ground in.

I love ya to death JR, but I have to disagree about it being easy. At least for me. Blond ya know.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

This is it in a nutshell. Bar jocks - dime a dozen. Minimal skill level required. Just the desire to have fun with friends (most of them in this area see it as a way to party and drink with friends while doing something fun). Most bar jocks have minimal investment. Their entertainment level is usually limited to a few smutty jokes or something that appeals to those who frequent bar jock shows.

Sadly, when a venue is on the lookout for a host they don't realize the difference between the bar jocks of the world and the KJ "hosts." They don't realize that the bar jock is often the "face" of their business...the first thing a new patron see/hears when they enter the room. That may be the only actual contact a person has in a new place, other than ordering a drink. Wonder why people don't go back to a place? I've heard this many times in the past few years - karaoke sucked! Most wouldn't go back on a non-karaoke night to really experience the place, so a place that is experiencing a slowing in their profits for one reason or another may not even realize that a rough-around-the-edges bar jock has offended people in some way, thus eliminating legions of people who may have become somewhat of a regular attendee otherwise.

Of course not all KJs appeal to everyones' sensibilities and there are those who respond positively to a bar jock but it doesn't make sense to eliminate anyone in these economic times.

Excellent post Karen! I think you really nailed it here- at least for me!

I have witnessed TOO MANY bar jocks in my time and relatively VERY FEW good KARAOKE HOSTS. -certainly a huge reason karaoke gets such a bad rap.

And many of the bar jocks stayed in their venues for years making decent money because there wasn't any real competition for them. A Regular Joe wouldn't know where to begin getting started and a bar wouldn't know where to find a good host.

And these bar jocks sucked! But you had to accept this fact or try to find another place that had it a little better. Bar Jocks were 75% owner/operators in my area and 25% worked for a multi-rigger and had almost no training. It was all about decent money for a few hours time and nearly all of these jocks drank and partied hard, -and there was little consideration for a good singer...."it's just karaoke and only for fun".

Babs, i AGREE with you in the sense that it IS HARD and NOT EASY when you first get started out IF...and ONLY IF..you have a desire to learn everything professionally and run a good show. MOST bar jocks (Chips' perfect terminology) just learn to plug-in a few cords and put discs in the player. Handing out books and slips is childsplay and running a brutal rotation is easy. FINESSE is required.

Getting to know more about your equipment and this industry, putting together a GREAT book, researching for better songs and discs, etc... takes many personal hours, but IS NOT required to put on a sub par show. BUT they do exist and still survive in many small bars and restaurants.

So when i agree to it being "easy" what i meant is the basics are easy to perform a simple show. To become a good Karaoke Host with solid knowledge IS HARD and for some of us a labor of love. Being a bar jock is easy once the basics are done!

No one is REQUIRED to know all their equipment specs, how to run a fair rotation, put together a 300 page book, how to speak to an audience, or know how to use every bell and whistle on compuhost or hoster.

RESEARCH is difficult and very time-consuming but i've seen too many shows that didn't seem to care about anything. All they do is ocassionally buy a new disc and new mic windscreens. And SOMEHOW they survive with fewer investment of time and money that us pro's spend on perfecting the craft.

-just an opinion. Oh, and I LOVE YOU TOO BABS!

Now I wish I hadn't referred to myself as a "bar jockey....."

PLEASE I am not trying to offend anyone here. I just thought the rates are a bit high for an unskilled profession.

And yes KJing is an unskilled profession. NO not ANYONE can do it, but a lot of people can.

Sure there are a lot of BAD kjs, and getting paid well does not mean you are a good KJ, and getting paid less does not mean you are a bad KJ (a lot of factors are involved).

There are lots of people who do a horrible job in ANY profession, and most of them get paid about the same as the people who are good at their job.

My estimate is that there is about 1 active KJ per 10,000 people in the US (not including resort areas). While I feel maybe 1 in 20 people have the ability to be good KJs if they set their mind to it and spent the time.

Now maybe only 1 in 50 people can be good KJs if they put in the effort but that does not change the fact that a lot MORE people can be GOOD KJs than are currently in the business. Regardless of where exactly the estimates fall.

With high unemployment, and this job being relatively easy, provided one has the personality and skill. I would expect a lot more competition and lower rates in the future.

As a part time job it is just about perfect for the semi-retired, or as a second job after a normal 9-5 day job. Most people could do with a little extra money, and the job pays pretty well.

10 years ago few people knew about karaoke, and of course the first people into the business did very well because of lack of competition.

Now it is a lot easier to enter into the business, as it is not to hard to find second hand equipment (and especially songs) at relatively reasonable prices.

I expect the future to have more part time KJs who are able to undercut the full time KJ pricewise, and many will also be GOOD KJs (and even be legal).

I may be wrong at this, but my prediction is that over time the business will be less and less profitable. The time when someone can earn a good living as a full time KJ is ending. If you have extra good skills, and a loyal following, you may not notice it as quickly as the lower quality KJs.

I am making a commentary on the future of the industry and the direction I see it heading.

Come back and revisit this comment in 5-10 years and see if I was right or wrong.

Dr. Fred,

You're right: anyone can get in this "unskilled profession" and I'm sure that you're also right that prices will continue to plummet ... in the clubs ... because of the huge influx of newbies looking for some extra income. Either to supplement a day job, a retirement activity or perhaps a stop-gap measure when someone is out of a day job.

However, I will assert that you are still only looking at one facet of this business: the bars, clubs and restaurants. And most club owners really don't care about anything but the bottom line and how little they can pay to get it. You are not taking into account the private party market.

There are plenty of professional hosts that work in a club during the week and private parties over the weekend. They are feeling the squeeze from the newbie-downloaders that are diluting the weekly market prices down to practically nothing. The establishment owners that stick with the same host/company for years, through thick and thin are far and few between. Lonman is a perfect example; he's been at the same club since the invention of dirt, I've been at one club for 12 years and through 2 owners. Do we get the newbies sniffing for our jobs at a lower price? You bet we do and thankfully, the owners don't bite on it.

But there are also plenty of jobs I don't get because I "charge too much." And when you work out the difference, it's about a 12 pack a beer.

We've all but stopped soliciting bars and clubs entirely and realize that a single setup and teardown at a private or corporate party is far more profitable one night a week than working a club 3 nights a week with 3 setups and teardowns.



Only true for the clubs. A good, full-time KJ will simply head to the private party market. A niche the standard bar jocks don't know how to tap, cultivate, market and work succesfully. A when I say "work successfully" I mean that most of their new business will be from referrals. A professional karaoke host cannot support themselves (much less a family) on the dwindling club prices so prevalent today.



It was more like 20 years ago, but the costs to get in this business were also MUCH higher. A single Pioneer laser disc with 18 or so songs was $160-$180 each. DK discs were $39 each. Microphones, cables and everything else was more expensive too. (Grandpa Lonman can vouch for the pricing)



You bet is a LOT easier to enter the business. I find that most newbies don't know (a) what to buy and (b) how to operate what they buy and (c) most of them don't buy music anyway. So on that basis, it is VERY easy to enter the business and start undercutting their way into every club they can. And the bar owners don't care for the most part because they get the benefit of being able to advertise "KARAOKE 9PM" and don't have to pay very much for it.

It'a a business that is about to cave in on itself and become nothing more than a "work for tips and drinks" part time hobby in the clubs.

The term is not intended as a slight of any kind, and EVERY KJ starts out as a "bar jock." Much like joining the Army; you start as a private and work your way up to General.

I did. Lonman did. Harryoke did.

It's a "trial by fire" and you have to suffer a few years of burns to learn what and what NOT to do.

The real money may be in the private party gigs true, but as more and more people learn to become KJs at bars/clubs then there will be more and more competition for those jobs.

Sure you may find a company or two that may stick with your services for the annual party for good services year after year, but other people looking to put on a karaoke party will shop around. Their decison will be based on reputation and price. Eventually prices will fall as competition increases.

Some events want the "best" KJ they can get and money is not much of concern, and those are great jobs. The way to get the reputation as being the best is to put out a lot of shows (and also being good at being a KJ). Word of mouth is your advertizement not fliers or the phone book or whatever. To put out a lot of shows in this market one may have to cut prices, both for private parties and for bar gigs.

The new kj may not be ready for the private party, and yes the skills are different. Some will learn others not, enough will learn, and many of the established KJs will stay in the private party market after they stop doing bar shows.

Entering the private party scene is a process, usually starting with a birthday party or company party for one or more of the regulars from the bar. Eventually you will build a reputation (and skills) if you are any good at it.

Just as the secret got out about how much money could be made as a bar kj until the market fell, the "secret" of how profitable private parties are is on the danger list.

Enough people may be willing to pay $300 now for a good KJ for a party, but there may be another GOOD KJ out there willing to do the same party for $250. Eventually you may have to make the decision of cutting your rates to $240 or staying home and earning nothing many nights. Soon the other KJ may cut rates to $230 and the cycle continues.


You may be a better KJ than the other person (or not) but the question is does the person booking the gig know that or feel the difference in skills are worth the price difference. Or are they willing to just take a chance to save $50.

If you have a great reputation, and rich set of potential clients. Things may look good NOW, but if things are so golden, the secret will get out. Another GOOD KJ will start in your market (or more likely 5 bad KJs and one good one).

Private parties and events are more difficult to get into if you're a new kj since NEARLY ALL of those parties aren't karaoke-only. One has to have knowledge on dj music, timing, and dance music to keep a crowd entertained throughout.

As far as house parties go, it seems the karaoke home market and manus that cater to them have taken away most of our private party karaoke-only business.

Even my requested karaoke parties always include dj/dance music and you need some experience to read a crowd and keep things upbeat the entire time.