Karaoke Forums

If you don't subscribe to the school of thought that says that:

If all singers arrive at the same time and leave at the same time, a fair rotation has them all singing the same number of songs.

Since all singers do not arrive at the same time, nor do they all leave at the same time, a fair rotation has them singing a number of songs that is proportional to the time spent in the bar, assuming they always have a request waiting.

Your method is not fair to the people who arrived early. It pushes them back unfairly behind (below) people who arrived later. You can give new singer priority - I won't argue that. But, once they sing their first song, they must be placed at the bottom of the rotation at the end of the round in which they first arrived. When multiple singers are given priority in any given round, they all go to the bottom in the order which they performed on stage.

You can crunch the numbers - it's simple algebra. What you will find is that the bottom half of your first spin through the rotation end up screwed. And those are the people who least deserve to be screwed over - they are the ones who showed up on time, usually when the show is the slowest.

_________________
I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Like I said..............No Complaints, same people coming week after week with more being added each week. I guess I am doing something right.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

troy - I've been doing it the way you are doing it, and it works.

only thing is on the first round I keep it list static till I hit 10 singers, if I even make it to 10 the first round. usually do, then at 10 singers or the start of the 2nd round is when I start the rotating list.

this way you build a good start to your list! and the first couple singers haven't sand every other song right at the start of the show.

I usually hit 13 singers in the first rotation.

_________________
It's all good!

I am close to this.

For the first 12-15 singers *OR* first hour - I do first come first served. After the first 12-15 / First Hour I mix in the new singers and I mix depending on the size of the crowd and how many new people show up.

Sometimes it is old/new/old/new/old/new/old/new
Sometimes it is old/old/new/new/old/old/new/new
Sometimes it is old/old/new/old/old/new/old/old

Occasionally, if I can get approval from the "old" singers, I will lump a bunch of new singers together - old/old/new/new/new/new/old. Usually on slower nights or earlier in the evening before we get crushed.

It is quite possible that a new person will still have to wait 1-1.5 hours for their first song if 6-8 other "new" people arrived before them. I am doing regular 30-40 unique person rotations this time of year. I also work at "10:30 bar". We may only have 6 patrons in the bar bat 9:30p (karaoke start time). At 10:30 we might have 40-50. Especially if there is some sort of >21 oriented event at Seattle Center which is walking distance from our bar.

Ultimately it comes down to knowing your crowd, the flow, and the activities going on around you that can impact attendance. I speak to my bar owner a couple of times throughout every week to ensure we both know what to expect every weekend.

I think this does more good than harm at my particular venue because my "regulars" are not weekly regulars. I only have 2-3 people that are there almost every week. The rest are every 2-3 weeks and usually in larger pods.

On any given week the average split is something like this -

25-50% - Repeat Attendees
50-75% - Never seen before

I get more regulars during the off season when there are fewer tourists.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

I have always run what I call a strict rotation. If you come early you are put at the top and I add new singers as they come in. I have a huge board so everyone can see where they are at and who they follow, this saves questions about who is next, and I can concentrate on the hosting part not keeping track for patrons, as to their position. With sometimes over 30 singers on the rotation it is the only fair thing to do. I don't work people in and I have never had a problem. All know they need to get there early and if they miss the next rotation cycle they are placed at the end. This way I reward the early birds and keep everything in order.

There so no such thing as the "perfect" way to run a rotation. Holes can be shot in every way they are run. Train your people for how you run your show and make sure that's how you run it. Adjust accordingly if needed. Then retrain, rinse, repeat.
I think the only hard and set rule should be first come first sing in the first rotation.

If I sing, and go sit back down, and somewhere between that and my next performance, I see someone come in and then sing before me,,,,,,,,I'm not a happy camper. That's the whole thought process behind my method and I've never had a complaint. Who's going to complain? The new singer that hasn't been spending money all night, or at least for part of the night?
To me it's no different than standing in line at a bank or wherever. If the bank manager sees someone come in through the door and directs them to stand in front of me,,,,, well you know what I'm thinking.

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

And let me add once again (this time with it's own little post) that if someone has to work late, let me know, I will reserve your spot. Tell me when you will be here.

That eliminates that problem.

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I'm an inserter. We get a lot of late comers because they CANNOT get there earlier because of getting off work late - lots of swing and graveyard shifts here. Some of them may only get one song in. Anyone that was there earlier is going to obviously get more songs in that any late comer, they don't just get to take over the rotation and push all the people that were there earlier out.
I have tried the end of the line for new singers & the amusement park line method (which I agree can be the fairest 'technically') but they did not work for the crowds I had. Depending on how many new singers, the old wouldn't want to wait for a big block of new singers (which when I did this, it did push the old singers out while the new singers took over the rotation). The amusement park line didn't work for similar reasons, but sometimes we would get little shoving matches that would happen due to people getting off stage (sing one/bring one) and trying to run up to me with their next slip ahead of other people they saw walking up with their slip just so they could sing again ahead of these people. So I will stick to the insert method as it has been working for me and our shows for 20 years. It's consistent. Nobody ever gets bumped up once placed. And is the way i'd like to see a show ran (which is why I started hosting in the first place to offer what I like at a karaoke show).

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You hold a spot for someone - they get there as a new singer and are already in the rotation? How does that work since they just got there, but there is already a long line?

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Reserving a spot by phone would cause quite a stink at my shows.

Our cue manager usually will insert one person from a group (people rarely arrive alone), rather than lumping a whole bunch of new singers together.

We have a wifi signup feature, and often people will sign up for several songs at a time. This, obviously, doesn't fly, but it gives the cue manager something to work with, rotationally speaking. It's kinds funny when someone comes onstage and asks: "What song?".

We're trying to work on doing "sets". Keep the high-energy tunes together; slow it down for a song or two, then pick it up again. This may not be the fairest thing, rotationally speaking, but it DOES make for a more complete show - a whole entertainment package includes watching/listening as well as performing. We have quite a few regulars who never sing at all.

Then again, we go out of our way to do nearly everything differently.

I consider myself a pretty good bull sh!tter..........but I love posts like these....I get to listen to the masters..........

I went to a show last week where there were 4 or 5 singers already signed up to sing before the show even started. Then another singer, who must be a regular at this KJ's show, showed up and handed in a slip. That particular singer was called up first to sing and the KJ let her sing TWO songs in a row. The group that I was sitting with made the decision that this would be a one song visit. We all sang our first songs and went to a different karaoke bar for the rest of the night. The KJ broke 2 Cardinal rules in the first 10 minutes of the show.

I was at another show where the KJ sings the first song in each rotation. My spot in the rotation was very close to the end of the rotation so when the KJ started to sing a song and then called his wife to the stage for her song; I got up and walked over to the KJ and informed him that he had skipped me. At first he denied it and then realized his error. After I sang my song, his inebriated wife got up to sing her song and after she was done she tried to blast me on the microphone for saying something about being skipped over. What is a singer supposed to do when he or she has waited well over an hour to sing a song and KNOWS for a FACT that he has been skipped? Is that singer supposed to just sit there for another hour and a half and hope he doesn't get skipped again? Later in the evening the KJ came over and apologized to me about the incident while his drunk-ass wife continued bad mouthing me to anyone who would listen. While I was waiting to sing, there were a handful of new singers that had been added into the middle of the rotation but I know that is what he usally does and that is not what my issue was. He went though an entire rotation including all of the new singers and I was the only person in the bar who wanted to sing that didn't get called up to sing. Do I have a right to bring it up to the KJ's attention or am I supposed to do nothing? What would you all do if this happened to you?

I would bring it up. I couldn't care less what his wife thought.
i have been to shows where the host played favorites with the regulars. I got there at the start of the show, and watch as regulars would sing song after song, while I sat there waiting. Would go complain, and finally get to sing another song, then wait while the regulars would get two turns. Then I would leave, but not before telling the host that he sucked butt!!

You won't create new regulars if you ignore the new people.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

If I miss a singer I will be the first one to admit and apologize over the mic I had a brain fart. Doesn't happen often, but has in the past.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I did this as well. And sometimes (usually) I would buy them a drink.

Except during the first rotation, of course.

Anyway, I hear you and I do think that technically, that really is the "fairest" way.

I remember I was doing it that way a little over a year ago. Then I felt sorry for my regulars who would get there late, so I switched to the insert method to try to make it more enjoyable for everyone, not just the ones who arrived early. Then I started receiving a lot of complaints because the regulars couldn't understand the insert method, and still don't. As of right now, everyone goes at the end of a static rotation list (ALL NEW PEOPLE AT THE END OF THE LIST, EVEN IF WE ARE AT THE END OF THE LIST). I know with all my heart that way is NOT FAIR at all and I am about to change it.

Now that I have had several years doing it every way possible, it's time for me to truly pick my poison and stick with it.

And I'm gonna change it back to the way I was doing it last year... which is the way you do it now.

So basically, starting on the 2nd rotation, the rule will be... whatever time you show up and sign up to sing, you will have to wait for everyone else who is already signed up, to sing once before you do. The way to accomplish this in Karma's rotation (I USE KARMA) is to insert the new singer right above the person who is currently singing.

To implement this new change, I am going to officially write it up and post it in the front of my songbooks. Then next week, I will make several announcements throughout the night informing everyone of the official rotation policy.... where it's located and to come see me if they don't understand it or have any questions. Then from that point forward, there will be no deviations from it.

I realize now that as a karaoke host, you can't please everybody and "YOU" will have to be able to intelligently justify your rotation methods to complainers. So you better pick the method that makes the most sense to you and stick with it.

The reason I run a strict rotation is if singers know they are going to be inserted after the first round, they are encouraged to come in later knowing they will not have to wait. This does not go down well with the patrons who have bought dinner and drinks and have been supporting the venue all through the evening. In many cases the singers inserted sing their one song. If the board is full they simply leave and go to the next show that allows insertion. My crowds are very stable and you don't see them bar hopping to get more singing time in. This usually results in better profits for the venue as well. I have never had anyone complain about the fairness of the strict rotation. It is all above board and simple with simple rules.

Purely from a singer's perspective, and one who would arrive early for more chances to sing, rather than travel to different places all evening, I think you are on the right track. I would not be too happy if there were a lot of people in the rotation and new people were inserted in the middle of it giving them priority. The people who arrive early and stay late have the potential to purchase more and spend more and should be treated fairly. I can deal with a bunch of new singers being added at the bottom of the rotation every time around. If you arrive at the beginning of a long rotation, that's bad luck, but the people who have been there patronizing the establishment should not have to suffer just because you came in the door.

If your show has more singers than can possibly sing in a four hour show, then that fact will adjust itself... it has to.

The people who want to sing often will either arrive earlier or find a less crowded venue that offers more opportunities to sing.

Sometimes a show can get TOO successful as it may have passed the equilibrium point between numbers of singers and time available. In that case you either have to become really creative with your rotation or somehow change the equilibrium point back in your favor by adding more time, like an earlier start time or later end time if at all possible.