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Yes, I killed my evil twin off. He was one mean SOB.

Well, some of us have been in the service not during war time. I was in the Navy during the time that ol' rascal the Ayatollah was acting up and yes, it crossed our minds many times that we might be going over there.  I think when you join the military of your ownvolition, it's something you have to know you could be involved in--elsewise what is the point of having the military?  I think Ollie's problems would lighten up if he just could wake up and take a clear look around him and definitely try to knock off the drinking.  That NEVER makes anything better.

Yes, he was....... I agree.

Welcome back Tony.  :wave:

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Oh,  I'm in no hurry to go to my grave.  I don't mind if a skeleton wants to lay there, I'd rather there be no room for me !   I'm going to just rot here with all you folks  :hug:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I've been fortunate in my life if for no other reason then not having had nearly as much REAL trauma as many others have had.  Although some of course have had a much easier past as well. There are a few ways to deal with situations that happened in our past.  As well as how we opt to deal with what goes on around us even today.  Whether it feels it or not, WE DO have a choice in adjusting our attitude. Working hard to try to improve aspects of life "that suck". This doesn't mean the change is easy.. Thing is, WE are the only ones who can initiate such a change once we've decided that it's our life we are stuck with... Life has ALOT of ugliness to it too.. None of us are impervious to certain stresses in life, and ultimately one of the most agonizing traumas, the loss of loved ones, family, or for some unfortuneate souls, their whole immediate family in an instance..

It COULD be worse for almost all of us !  I guess as youngsters we can throw a tantrum and say "It's not my fault that I was born", but as we get to be a little older (say around 50), no-one gives a rat's patooty about our tantrums...WE just end up with the stress hangover from the tantrum,  and a blazing headache...

How long can, and should we use the past as an excuse ?   I suppose it's an individual case by case call.. Bottomline though, it's our life.. Among the limited choices we have, modifying behaviour (that's unhealthy) is certainly one within our grasp, we can at  least go thru the actions and try hard.

We can blame the cause til we are blue in the face, and how long the after-affects linger is also quite individual, yet it's ashame to spend ones whole life imprisoned by a gate that WE have the choice of lifting. Fact is, the world IS DIFFERENT today. We can blame "what the worlds become" even "what our countries become", and I'm sure most of us that are middle-aged can commiserate with the fact that something's not right, and values are WAY off....or at least different today lacking certain priorities we believed were parliament, values instilled when we were growing up... Yet we MUST evolve a bit.  We can't live in the past and be happy in the current world without making some adjustments which first requires an understanding of what's happened.  Whether we agree with why things have gone to hell or not... MOST of us didn't participate in the cause of the deterioration of our society, and NONE of us singly can lose sleep over trying to fix something MANY others broke, or maybe change was just inevitable given the time in a culture such as ours..Whether we approve of what is, or not; Something is wrong, something went wrong, inspite, or despite us, and we have a choice as to whether what's wrong is going to eat at us indefinately. It's not good to stare at hell too long, just as certain things are unhealthy for us individually to obsess over. We must learn when it's time to turn away, and bring ourselves back to OUR here and now..... We are in the present now, for some it's time to look ahead and not back... Others aren't ready, or can't for certain reasons... But we have control of US..... OUR OUTLOOK, and that's all.... We can try to teach others,  but if they don't speak our language, and haven't lived what we have, it's not fair to expect them to be our reincarnates....

Yet Keith's approach is no more incorrect, than our approach in being quite sympathetic... There's a point when it does NO GOOD to blame our past anymore. Some survived the same set of circumstances.. and I'm sure ALL that are the same age, recognise the same type of changes in the kids today when they look back and compare their own upbringings with the very different world we live in now. Yet there are some good kids too !  There are kids that serve their country, and are quite respectful of others. NOT all that live in our country have poor value systems, even in the past, there were the slovenly, immoral, leeches that always existed...There've always been crooks. 

As long as we opt to live, it's our life... We reep the emotional ups of our life often alone, and suffer the downs often alone too. To move forward requires a tough change.  For some, the alcohol kept us in our past too,  it prevented us in certain cases from growing, or getting over what we must go thru. We can't experience certain growth, and go thru the necessary steps necessary to recover, or just get over certain aspects of our past when using a hypnotic/depressant like alcohol excessively. It doesn't allow us to grow. It keeps us glued to the past. It's often strange like that

It is OUR life to deal with.  We are stuck with it... We choose to stay alive,  the quality of our life is also our choice as adults. While certain events that go on around us are not our choice.  How we cope, and deal with life IS our choice !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

<edit> I promised to be nice. I am with Charmin on this one.

This thread was started after a few beers and exagerated a whole bunch...It was half in humor and half in frustation about wahts going on now... And I grinned when I read Keiths post.. I can laugh now but we all have weak moments.
And Keith a couple of comments it isnt the military but the Jane Fondas that I hate.. We buried the first marine in this county that died in the latest... Sure enough there was the protesters there blowing their nose and walking on the flag.  His mother was there and 50 bikers showed up and revved  their bikes to drown out their singing then 18 wheelers shielded the procession from the assholes and the burial. We observed all protocol along with the local sheriffs dept. I can stuff these things but gradually they all build up and I have to vent..

I get ballistic at times when it comes to things that go against the things that I believe in. Years ago a neighbor came over and totally admired my medals but I told him the battle is not over there it is here Stand up for your rights in this country but they used the education system to  brainwash a few generations into non-violent submission and total dependency on uncle sam..

I have seen total crops wiped out with one hail storm. We have been snowed in for 2 weeks...We have been through floods and in all situations had to provide for all the livestock an were too busy taking care of business to be wondering where all the help was. And neighbor helped neighbor. Dependency.....

Oh well here I go again but I have learned over the years to totally blow then laugh about it.. Those that know me in real life know me as a wise elder and very spiritual.. I am a shepherd and a beacon not a judge I am a wicca and have respect and tolerance for all religions and mores. I detest hypocrites and those that want to condemn or judge others and tell thm how to live..When a society takes babies from a mother in the guise of rearing the child in a bubble or environment that is state controlled is nazi in the first degree
 I will end this post with a truth that goes with the natural and spiritual laws that truly govern.. We come on this side to learn certain lessons and develop spirituallu Thetre is no one who has thew right to tell anybody what roads to go down how to mature what philosophies to adopt what mores to live by or what lessons to learn But there is a whole bunch of people that want to save the world and pass very heavy laws want to totally change society to to their manical and fantasy world so their shortcomings are satisfied And old indian elder was asked by kids what can we do to heal the world She calmly replied heal thyself...

And can anybodody explain to me why afer viet-nam there were thousands of vets that were homeless yet you go into the welfare offices and housing assistance and they are totally taken over by illegal aliens and they get more benefits than vets that  served this country?

Thanks Guys and Gals.....

I just want everbody to say karoker got drunk again laugh and the we will go on to the next topic...Life is too short to get serious and if youare getting serious on a forum then.....

That's EXTREMELY frustrating !  Alot of what is going on is A$$-backwards.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I can explain....

After Vietnam there were so many homeless vets because so many of them were strung out on drugs.....Drug use among the ranks was rampant...Drugs were more available than fresh food over there....It was the 60's era-the LOVE generation and the drug problem was almost as bad stateside....Many draftees were already using drugs before they shipped out, so when they got to Nam they were in drug supply heaven....When they returned stateside many of them had a serious habit.

Most homeless people have serious drug/alcohol/mental problems....Most Vietnam vets only served about 2 years with 1 year actually 'in country'....Then, as now, folks either abuse drugs/alcohol or they don't.....Folks that do abuse usually suffer from it in many ways including being 'homeless'.

Our troops today are screened routinely for substance abuse and criminal history before and during service, and therefore today's vets have way fewer problems after military service....That proves that military service is not the blame, it's the quality of the person involved.

Where the hell is the "swooning smilie" when you need one?  LOL

You promised to be nice?

Dang, but I wish I coulda read that post before you edited it.  :whistle:

Well, don't let me be the one to change the mood of this new, nice Tony...  :D ... if memory serves me right I've done that before.

Okay, now I said I wasn't gonna post here any more, so by ya'll.... (or maybe that was just directed at Keith)

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

The two homeless men around here are Nam Vet's.  They come from wealthy families. Out've refusal to adhere to the "no alcohol" rules of shelter's, and by their own doing, (supposedly) these two are homeless.  It's their choice, they drink heavily, and are mentally ill.  They have money.  They come from money. They don't want to conform to rules. At least in the case of these two.  They aren't in financial straits. The Vet's I've known have been among the last of a VERY respectable type "generation" of real person, that's learned from hardknocks. Most do cope. One of course went crazy when a muffler backfired.... He'd hit the ground screaming with his hands over his head  :(   Al also went a abit crazy when he saw me carrying in those days.  He HATED guns. Gave me a whole lecture as to how I should take a bullet to my foot before carrying..


I don't know about other cases of Viet Nam veteran PTSS, Alot of vet's I've known during wartimes have had probs, most in fact. Sometimes it's nothing extremely noticeable. Sometimes it seems as though there's a rebellious streak. Other times they are clearly no longer sane, but whether alcohol psychosis is the cause, or the alcohol was self medicating for conditions most would have a toughtime enduring, I don't know... I've never been trained to kill (out've necessity), and surrounded by blood and gore... But after Nam, America wasn't prepared for the return of the Veterans either. It seemed (at least from what I've heard from those somewhat healthier, that our country was only verbally sympathetic, wives and couselling just weren't prepared for the affects of a Vet who'd been exposed to stressful conditions. I'd imagine ANY soldiers that were in the service during a war have gone thru hell. WW1, WW2, Korea, Nam, Desert Storm, and Iraq.  Seems that back prior to the days of Desert Storm they didn't counsel or understand a need to desensitize Vets active during wartime.  Didn't that change with Desert Storm in the early 1990's ?  There will be MANY messed up Vet's returning from Iraq.  Hopefully there's a different understanding today of wartime PTSS. Mental AND Physical health probs will be pretty bad this time around... God only knows what these guys are physically exposed to.

I never understood how ANY sane person can believe you can take a person that's gone thru training during war, seen wartime in real, or expect any frontline soldier that's gone thru hell that most would have a toughtime handling, and assume such a person won't need to be reconditioned and desensitized before getting put directly back into civilian life and expect no ramifications from what they've been exposed to. There's got to be tremendous guilt, anger, fear, and hypervigiliant behaviour that lingers A LONG time... Anyone who lives daily with the mindset, Kill or be killed for any duration is going to suffer trauma...  How does a person just give that mindset up just because they board a plane home ?  These people have GOT to be wired !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

  Been away for awhile. Caught this post, wasn't gonna say anything, but after reading replies, the need was there...for me anyway.
 I served 69' to 73'. Been there, done that, it's in my past, where I prefer it to stay. That person "lived" for four years. When I came home, a lot of my friends didn't. Those who did, the bulk of them, wished they didn't. No assistance, limited counseling, and most didn't, and still don't, want to "talk" about their "experience"!
A lot of WW11 vets are the same. My opinion, it's over. No sense kicking a dead horse. Leave it be and move on. As "Forest Gump" said, "That's all I've got to say about that".  8)

                       Donny "B"

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It's a wonderful life!!

yep, i think that about does it!

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All work and no play make Homer something something

IMO every vet in this counrty should have unlimited health care, period.                :worship:  

I have a friend that was in Nam, he has Agent Orange sickness and passed it to his kids.    :(    

Nobody knows what went on over there.

How about what the vets in Iraq will end up with being in that place for years ?  They're likely getting exposed to all sort's of bacteria..

Btw... Remember the reporter at the beginning around 2003, David Blum ?  One day I see him sitting on a tank broadcasting news,  the next day he's dead from some embolism ?   What happened to him ?  That sounded too bizarre..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yeah, our bush is really screwing our troops this time around....he is working our reserve and nat guard kids just like they were full active duty troops, but they don't get all the benifits or active duty service...he keeps sending them back, and extending their deployments...Man, those guys are RESERVES!...They never were intended to be used and abused like that....Many of them will never regain their jobs back home or catch up with their family lives.

When I joined up I knew it was for a career, but these reserves had other intentions.

Many of our troops who have been wounded over there are really shot up bad....they would have died in any past conflict, but our battle field medical abilities have improved to the point that these poor kids are surviving and facing a miserable life with what's left of their shattered bodies....And I mean shattered-not just wounded-lots of them are really pitiful......

Yep.  You're right on target in your last post Keith!

A friend of mine's 21 yr old nephew died in Iraq. He did his time over there and
didn't want to leave. I guess him and his buddies had had heat stroke several times
and actually hid their medical records so they could stay. They weren't wearing their protective gear because of the horrible heat even though they are supposed to.
They got hit and most died. From what I was told if they were wearing it they may have lived.

The family is very proud of him. They know this was totally his choice to stay. They said he was proud to serve his country and thought he was doing the right thing.
The family doesn't blame Bush or the government.

I realize there are horrible things going on because of the war and I don't agree with all of it. It was a travesty this young man lost his life so young. My friend said when he did come home on break he seemed very different. He went out, partied hard and was very violent. I wonder sometimes if they don't want to come home because of what they have been through and would find it hard to adjust. I think they are forever changed.

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At a karaoke show.. about a year ago... a very handsome (and even drunker) young man... walked over to the desk... and asked if he could sit next to me.  I'd never seen him before.... but asked him if I'd ever met him before.  He told me .. NO .. you don't know me... but I want to sit with you.  I asked him what brought him to the show... and he told me he was in the area to visit friends .... and that he'd just burried a friend that weekend ... that had died in Iraq.  He was a Marine.. and in horrible mental pain ... anguish, I'd say.  I told him to get a chair... and sit with me for awhile if he wanted to.  He began to cry.. put his head on my shoulder... told me he needed his mom... but she was far away.  I just put my hand on his head... held it against my shoulder... and cried for a moment with him.  He stayed with me for about 10 minutes... and then suddenly jumped up, and said he needed to find his buddies.  It was a very emotional and confusing exchange.  

I didn't ask him to tell me what happened to his friend... I didn't need to.  I didn't need to ask him anything.  He was scared, and sad ... and LOST.  He told me he had to go back... and just kept shaking his head .... while the tears rolled.  I told him I'd pray for him.  

Later that night.. I asked the bartender (an older man who's worked the club for eons) ... if he knew who the young marine was.  He said no... but he knew the guys he was with .. and that one of them said he was worried about the marine going back.  

I was told that he too was killed .... about 4 months after he returned.  

I am not afraid to say that I do not favor this war... nor have I ever.  But... I am also not afraid to say ... that I totally respect our troops ... and their comittment to their JOB.  I am the daughter of a WWII and Korean War Vet, who served our country.... and I am proud what he and all VETS have done.  

I wish you well, Ollie.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
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