Karaoke Forums

Given the environment, and nature of the performance he should've been wearing goggles to protect his eyes.  I'll bet that came up and he refused

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well, if that performance had taken place today, yes....but, that was...what? 30 years ago?  I don't think Doc Sevrenson was even the Tonight Show band leader there yet....not so much paranoia about self injury at that time...

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

This is his site.  I guess today he'd be around 26 or 27.

http://www.jacobarmen.com/biography.htm

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yup...which makes that clip just about 20 years old...yeah...don't think they were worrying about self inflicted performances injuries at that time...*laugh*

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

Steven, I got a question for you.

I went to karaoke at a local American Legion hall friday night. I met quite a few new people (got offered a band gig too...  :whistle:... better get that new band together quick, Lol) Anyway, that was SO off topic....

Back to the subject. I met an older couple who came up and started talking to me, seems they used to play bands in the younger days and still play bluegrass music as a hobby. We're gonna get together soon (maybe next weekend), the Mrs plays guitar, drums, & bass... the Mr plays lead guitar and also bass. (wow, I can't get to a point very fast can I? )  

They set about explaining an instrument to me that they have, though even with their long, drawn out description, I can't picture how this would work. It's called a guitorgan. Apparently, they are very rare, but this guy has spent his lifetime collecting every one he can locate... they have 5 of them.

Rather than me try to bumble explaining it, especially since I've yet to see them, I did find some info on them on the internet.
(quoted from http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/om16000.html)

Guitorgan

The Guitorgan started out in life as a Univox "Effie", a Gibson ES-335 copy. They were bought in quantity by Musiconics International out of Waco, Texas in 1969 and outfitted with organ parts. Each fret has six segments and when the string makes contact with the fret, the corresponding note sounds. It can be played as guitar, organ or both. It is believed that only about 3000 guitorgans were made. Bob Murrell is credited with its invention and Musiconics International (MCI) of Waco, Texas claims to have introduced the world to the Guitorgan.

The organ notes are typically keyed with switches on or under the frets. The guitar remains playable but organ notes can be played instead of or in addition to guitar chord. Murrell worked on converting existing products from the late 1960s. In 1968, he had a significant run of instruments based on semi-hollow body designs. The B300 and B340 are among the most common examples from this run. He continued to produce upgrades that included analog synthesizer interfaces and even midi in the mid 1980s.



You ever seen or played one of those? I tell ya what, my curiosity is boiling, I can't wait to see them. When they come over, they are going to bring one or two, but I may go to their house to see their whole music collection- they live only about 2 miles from me. Appartently, the Mrs can play this thing very well.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Oops.... thought Ebay had one listed, but I was wrong. I misread that link.

Pretty things, aren't they:

http://www.loncohen.com/pix/60smusiconicsb300.html

Oh wow, and here you can hear one played:
(surely this can't be JUST the guitorgan playing?)

http://spitzer.digitalbird.org/Guitorgan

Dang, I need to get a life;)

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Yes,  I'm quite familiar with them,  and wouldn't it be funny if the couple is the same couple I knew around here in 1985, the guy played Guitorgan solo however.  It's very heavy, you depress the chord (guitar style) with your kneck hand and it slowly swells into a hammond quality organ quality, leaving the finger of the chord pressed on the kneck would sustain the organ, and it IS actually an organs electronics used on the instrument, as well as being a heavy hollow body double-cutaway 335 TYPE of body, it has electric guitar qualities when picked or played as you'd use your righthand on a semihollow guitar..  It's ONE heavy instrument however LOADED with switches and electronics..  Sort've like the Cordovox, as was it's application in the cocktail music scene, the Guitorgan was interesting older tech.. A guy would play that, use a rhythm box, and a set of foot pedals similar to the Hammond B-3 pedals for the one man band thing in the late late 60's early 70's but they weren't in production long, and really never made it BIG, where-as the cordovox did.. I forgot this guys name tho.. HE was a whiney guy (a sad sap) and at that time had his kid running all over the lounge and people were getting miffed..

He let me play the thing and it had a great organ sustain..  What it is
(Here's an example)

You'll depress (let's see a D chord) on the kneck of the guitar,  there will be a gradual swell into a full G hammond organ sound chord, and you can adjust the attack, decay, organ stops etc.. By depressing the neck fingering you are playing the organ.. or any variation of fret work because the neck has the organ conductivity electronics... What you play with your right hand (this assumes you to be a right handed guitar player of course) will be the electric guitar part BUT it's not a 335 type sound,  reason being the body mass is incredible so it's slightly different sounding.. You'll really like it..  Just don't allow him to hand it to you when you're standing.. Sit first,  it's one heavy mothuh !!   They are VERY costly..  and VERY tough to repair too...  Pretty instrument...  Kind've coexisted for awhile alongside the cordovox... Bar Mitzvah, and Wedding gig type music...

As soon as I saw all the slide bars, and switches first thing that came to mind is...Oh no,  this will be a source of switch nightmares like my Hagstrom guitars were ..  He kept contact spray onhand tho..  It has full equalization onboard and there were a few models.. It's a neat instrument.  You'll consider it to be like a Synth guitar... and for around 1970 it WAS great technology.  Of course today Roland uses their pickups for guitars, similarly the Line-6 Variax series does versatile guitar stuff alone, but roland today in the digital era can do stuff making the guitar lighter... YET,  IMHO, you can't beat analog for certain sounds.. consider this like an older analog guitar synth that does great organ and nice electric guitar... Similarly a synth can do organ, and you can get guitar sound by pressing keys,  this was sort've the opposite, an organ for non-keyboard players...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

So..... you'd "strum" the guitar, or you'd be playing "lead" guitar?
(right hand I mean)

Seems like it would be confusing as hell, maybe not. Can't be much more confusing than a banjo.  LMAO

I'll PM you the guys name, probably shouldn't post it here. He's a pretty old guy. And, now that I think about it, it seems he DID say he plays them as well. His wife is a bit younger than him, they've only been married about 12 years, and HE is the one who has always collected these, not her. Makes sense he could play them. I do know, (apparently)  he played alot around the states, and was opening act for alot of big names... though in a band, not "solo" with a guitorgan. (or.. he never said that anyhow) I didn't get to hear either of them do anything yet besides sing. As I mentioned, I did meet them at karaoke.

But what an odd thing to choose to "collect". They also have 2 fiddles they told me about, one which was her gr-grandfathers that he originally brought all the way over from Ireland when he immigrated. Can't wait to get my hands on THAT... they have 2, but neither of them play.  And they have a Stainer, which they said is a pretty old one...  :shock: ... You know how long I've wanted to play one of those? I'm REALLY glad I took my friends up on their invite and went to the legion:) Ah well, I'm not gonna get my hopes up and till I see/hear it all... the proof is in the pudding you know. Lots of people can tell stories.... they may have a bunch of junk stuff. (like ummm... I do)  LOL

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Actually it's not all that complicated it was a great concept for a band that wanted to keep their band down to 4 pieces and have a second guitarist that also played keyboards  :)    Two instruments in one..  Although not as versatile as an actual hammond B-3 because you'd be limited to kneck work for organ quality..


Check this instrument out..

(post soon to follow as soon as I fetch it)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven, as soon as I read what you wrote (err.. was it here? or was it pm?)

Anyways, I looked up the Chapman stick.

That's pretty much what I told ya my mom got. Except hers might be a cheaper version of the original Chapman one. Seems it's simpler.

I gotta go finish a recording for someone... I'll be back in a bit.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

OK,  What you see here is basically a two handed broader range guitar with bass register too.  Do you see what this guy is doing with his left hand ?  Where he's pressing to get the bass quality,  the Guitorgan will get the Hammond B-3 quality instead with that left hand work... BUT unlike Emmet chapmans stick,  the Guitorgan is six strings and usually standard fingering

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7kIclA4yq4


I got your PM charmin.   I wanted to share what the chapman stick was with everybody however,  It's a really interesting instrument.   WOW,  and add a rhythm machine like a Roland Dr-5 to this guy and you have a decent jazz trio !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Not at all,  it's a really nice sounding instrument. Only problem might be for some "older electronics" aren't useful and can be a headache source.  Today it's not practical cost-wise to maintain, but analog can do certain things quite well.  In the older days it was an amazing analog guitar-synth that did both guitar and organ REALLY well, and was smaller than a hammond of course. I suppose according to some certain types of furniture, pottery, wedgewood, electric trains are weird to collect BUT, some of us still like the stuff... The organ on this is much nicer sounding than a Farfisa, or vox panther from those days (IMO).  Really a Hammond organ quality on a semi-hollow guitar CAN be achieved by tweaking the switches and sliders (I think, been LONG since I heard one)..  I'd just hate to have to pay to have those switches, circuitry, and wiring fixed today since few people repair that type instrument given unfamiliarity with it.  Since it's not an abundant instrument,  there's a paucity of repair folk that know it's wiring ..  Unless a person can do this themselves, itd be VERY costly
http://www.experiencedmusicalinstruments.com/cool.htm..  Of course having my hammond worked on is quite costly too, yet the B-3 is MUCH more popular and known than the GuitOrgan even though it's production after the 30th year of retirment is now digital circuitry..  Repair folks that work for Hammon-Suzuki still have a knowledge and parts for the 1975 and prior year B-3 and M-series repairs

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I was mentioning via PM a free interactive guitar and bass instruction site.  I've gone to this site to take some lessons in modal theory, and jazz stuff myself.  These instructors are excellent musicians, and great teachers. The internet can be an amazing source for musicians given possibilities with cams these days, and MIDI hardware/software, this tech enables the sharing of knowledge.. While there are advantages to "in person" coaching and instruction, proximity of instructors within given areas often is a disadvantage regarding "in person".

http://www.riffinteractive.com/

This site *at least for the past few years I've followed it* usually makes the assumption (in terms of difficulty of lessons given) that Christmas will be the time people might get a guitar.  So around New Year the lessons start as beginners lessons.  As the year progresses they increase in complexity..  As you can see we are entering the last few months of the year so complexity of lessons includes material such as progressive rock, SRV, etc.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

See 9-12-07 news regarding Zep reunion
http://www.led-zeppelin.org/

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

http://www.ledzeppelin.com/

It's official.  Headline America Online news

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Lena asked:


It MUST be developed, it's recognition and familiarity not magic ! An excellent ear means developed "relative Pitch", while perfect pitch is very different the concept of :excellent ear: means learned relative pitch and the ability to assimilate thru pattern recognition.

This isn't magic, most don't consider what "Natural talent" means...  NO pianist shoots out've the womb, immediately walks over to the piano and just magically plays complex compositions... For some, there appear to be parts of the brain that enable them the propensity to do something more easily... Personally I think unless something is reflex or "nuance-specific" such as lightening fast playing that's beyond what most consider fast while maintaining accuracy that's more reflex, given body developement it's ALL learned skill, the fact that I can do it in an hour, while initially it might take you 5 hours is how ALL stuff is when learning. Problem with phrases such as Innate ability, "A natural", is that it implies "magical"... Sure some kids are better at ball sports while others of us take a few hits to the eye socket because our spatial relationship sucks.. but often we haven't been taught technique.. We never believed it can be easily done and we psyched ourselves out before we could even start to learn by believing "He can play by ear because god his given him a gift"... Well, I know some will disagree, but WE ALL have the same gift... difference is you might not know you have it.. I worked hard to get it.. fact that I enjoyed working at it, and had great elementary instructors that steared me in a direction to do something, doesn't mean my ability is "Natural talent".. Might mean getting it done is more important to me than you, I put in the work and REALLY wanted to learn it.. Nuance is one thing, knack is still something we develop... BUT even speed is just familiarity..  I'm not one to say "I have something others don't.  Because I remember when I looked at ALL the notes on a keyboard and said "WTF ?  How can a person work all those things to make them sound like THAT "...  If I walk into a lecture and people are talking in russian, and I don't have a clue as to what they are saying,  are they "Naturals" ?  or have they learned a language I never did ?
Look at it that way.. It does NOBODY any good to feel "Natural talent" means others can't do the same thing... I'm not 7 feet tall, I'm not developed in certain ways... So assuming basketball hoops are 10 feet if in a game with 7 foot athletes I'm at a disadvantage due to certain physical limitations... Nothing about our body or mind limits us from ALL being good musicians if we want to be and learn how to be.. There's no magic,  I'm NO better than anyone that was never exposed to what I was hence never KNEW they could do as much or maybe more than me.. I've taught adults that've become better than I am,  I"ve taught kids how to start and years later they've taught me stuff... We ALL have the ability get good, and learn from one-another... it's just a language

Natural might mean we are more attracted to something because form infancy something about it was made interesting to us..  Are these kids of musicians such as Jason Bonham, Julian Lenon Naturally gifted ?  or are they born with pretty much a carte blanche ticket due to who they know, who WANTS them to excel, and the fact that THEY ARE PROBABLY feeling and hearing stuff while in the womb, and soon while in the crib hence they are interested in it, recognise it, so they feel comfortable doing it... You might have a natural talent, some of this stuff doesn't require talent.. It's learning a new language... MUSIC is a language,  some learn it VERY young.. Others never learn they have the ability to learn it... It's ALL learned, but granted, some due to how the brain works MIGHT have a slight edge.. But ALL that can hear can do it !.






I sure can.  Nothing secretive or truly amazing about it.. It's simply A LOT of exposure, and FAMILIARITY hence you learn pattern recognition and assimilation of music.. Hearing it, and applying it..

Ear training is simple (but many are too impatient to do it) ?  Do you have a piano..
If you do, play intervals... and sing them... play c and next g... sing the C and G...
sing C and next E.... play it and see if it's correct.. you're now learning pattern recognition or interval recognition... Music is ALL within a scale of 12 semitones (only the octaves get higher and lower after the twelve notes in a given register)

With solfege singers can learn intervals and recognise the patterns for accuracy.. these will never change as long as music exists (or unlikely will) in our western mode... Sing C and next Eb (that's a minor 3rd).... or like with "Somewhere over the rainbow"... Some=C  and Where = C perfect octave higher... Recognise that.. first two notes of "taps" or Revelee as played on the bugle... C-F perfect fourth and they'll ALWAYS sound this way... might be D to G of course of in the D etc... but the interval is a fourth... play interval and learn to recognise them and associate them with other things... Music, intervals, chords are ALL composed of octaves that repeat the SAME twelve semitones.. there're minor quality intervals, scales, and chords... there are major sounding qualities too... All singers, and musicians benefit from studying elementary music theory... Like science, learning methodology and WHY stuff sounds as it does, helps us to recognise and visualise the music and process it.. Singers have excellent ears, in most cases I think (don't know JMHO and arguable) BETTER than we musicians, you folks have REALLY sensitive ears if you can nail pitch accurately.. Intuitively  you MUST develop it... because there are MANY ways a singer can sing off-pitch...  Me as a guitarist just need to know where to put my fingers, and the instrument is ALREADY tuned and doing the work for me...

Music is geometric, It's all patterns... sequence...etc.  While people claim it's abstract, I try to make it LESS abstract be visualizing and recognising what I'm hearing... So,  after being exposed to it all my life.... Like language.. I recognise it, repeat it...and put MEANING to the sounds...

MUSIC is just another language.. Everything done (tonally) is happening for a reason.. Little is random in western structured composition.. It builds off've limited scales, notes, interval possibilities, etc...

Repetition is what builds your ear... DOING and understanding what you are doing.. Once you learn to walk... It takes a major illness to forget how to do it... As with riding a bike.. The illusion is "How can we with good ears apply something so abstract"..  The fact is... IMHO it's not abstract at all... Play several notes in a pattern, and they will ALWAYS sound that way...  turning that around.... I can hear certain notes knowing they ALWAYS sound a certain way when played in a sequence... Go to the piano and play them without ever having tried.. It's ear training which is FAMILIARITY...  YOu singers do it, and you do it better than you think.. but you just don't know it and give yourself credit for it..

Unless you are site reading... When you are singing the melody of a song... It's in your head before you reproduce it.. IT MUST BE otherwise you couldn't repeat the sequence from memory... So while you do it.. You just haven't visualized quite what you are doing... You sing, and it's in tune when it comes out've your mouth ?  How did that happen ? Between every semitone.. meaning lets take C and C# piano tuners break it down into increment of what's known as 100 cents.... meaning there are MANY possibilities of singing off key, yet most are pretty accurate most of the time.. without pressing just a key, or a pushing on a note.. You singers sing it, and it's in key ?  You recognise and assimilate... SO...  try to recognise more pattern to music.... Hear it... Know it's a minor or major interval... Know it's a major triad, minor triad... you can play it on the piano... you recognise it and rather than sing it out.. you push the notes that make it sound..

..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It's that easy.... Listen and repeat... Hear a few notes... Play it.... Sing a cappella, take the time to familiarize with patterns and sequences that will soon be recognised as stuff you've done many times in some similar form... Learn to watch melodic flow in your head as you hear it... Listen to a song, know "this note went up a little, and the next one dropped down more (perhaos a 5th) you'll in time hear a song, and see melodic flow as a ticker tape going across your forehead..Music is patterns. It's geometric.. BUT it's a language that you must become familiar with thru repetition, and music theory at the rudimentary level is IMPORTANT.. The painter learns to mix paints to obtain color for visual reasons... The musician learns to combine notes to convey the message.. It's no mystery why those of us with good ears have such good ears.. as it's no mystery why those that are gifted geometricians have the knack... It's a developed part of the brain... that MANY have,  they just never learned to tap into the area..  Most that don't have developed ears  have never taken the time to develop their ear.. MORE don't think they can..  They are looking for magic and secrets where there are none, musicians are conditioned to recognise the language of music which means listening and repeating.. Music is a form of communication, when you sing, or play instruments we LISTEN and REPEAT...

To say this is magic, and I have a gift you don't is to lie..  Unless a person has a physical handicap such as being somewhat deaf, or their brain has a tough time retaining and recongising patterns like the game of chess, and putting together puzzles... we learn by doing and recognising.. Is putting a jigsaw puzzle together magic ?  or is there a method that we learn and develop.  Is painting giving the illusion of dimension on a two dimension canvis magic ? or technique that's learned because of interest and exposure ?  There's no magic, while it's sometimes kind've cool to have people believe I have a "God GIven" talent, my own feelings are that I learned the language of music before I learned how to speakl and recognise vocabulary (this is a fact)..  Only thing God GIven is that those that I was born into a family that wished to control my destination as a young kid pushing me into music by using positive encouragement.. and card just fell a certain way after I was born.. NOTHING naturally in this life comes easy to me (except procrastinating by yacking in chatrooms), ALL 12 instruments I play and languages I learned took work,, but learning one helped me learn two which gave me secrets to learn three which turned me into an analytical pain-in-the-A$$... My parents directed me with bias to do stuff that you likely weren't directed to do from VERY early childhool..It's just a language

like math, english language... and anything that involves step by step methodology. We begin this way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjI7987dFsA

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

TYVM Kappy. I have responded via pm. I'm sure this information will be of value to others as well, tyvm for taking the time.  :hug:

My pleasure Lena.  It's why I'm here, to be a part of musical interaction.


OK, I found this interesting all
http://www.ahsl.arizona.edu/about/ahsle ... uments.cfm

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Hi Kappy, it is obvious i'm delinquent. I just finished up a month of playing out, my back hurts, and my voice is shot so I shall set here and type out a few syllables from  the comfort of my four wheeled throne. I finally had time to take a peak at that link you posted of that guy back on the 8th. Yes, he be pretty talented at that. We're pretty lucky that one of our guys is a major Beatles fan and is also able to play and sing pretty much anything they did. I've always found Beatle harmonies very interesting and a bit harder to do, at least for me. We do Help, Ticket To Ride, Twist and Shout and Imagine (technically A Lennon tune I guess). Everything went very Well, "Time" and Never Been Any Reason" wowed the crowds not to mention how much group participation we received on "Big Balls"  LMAO Have I missed anything of importance in my absence?

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye