Karaoke Forums

There are a bunch of questions that need to be asked:

Original source
MP3 bitrate
Sound system quality
can your ears tell the difference

If you want a real test, eliminate the variables.

In my experience, there are differences in stereo imaging, bass fullness, high frequency response, and an overall fatique factor when listening to MP3's. As the bitrate of the conversion goes up, these problems go down, but you also take up more hard drive space.

Granted most people don't notice the differences, but they are there, and on some music it bugs the heck out of me.

CD quality is much better than "Near" CD quality.

This discussion is so subjective, that I wanted to make a few comments on my position.

While it is probably not important in the bars and halls that we play, and some of us probably don't care, I as a musician, and performer, want to provide the best quality system, including sound, both for my own satisfaction, and my customers.

While I may not have all of the technical descriptions correct, I do know what sounds good, and that is why I don't feel comfortable using a laptop sound card. I really can hear the difference, and that's why I choose not to use a laptop.

As far as MP3's go, I think they stink for sound quality. I can't wait for storage to get cheap enough when I can rip all of my files at CD quality.

The bottom line is, my position comes from my belief that I should always try to improve what I am doing. For me as a professional engineer, this tends to lean towards hardware as apposed to software. I think I have succeeded to some extent, with the limitations of the technology.

If your system sounds good, and your happy with it, then that's all that really matters. If you are like me, and want to improve it, then you might take the path that I have taken, trying many different components and combinations, spending more money than you probably should have, or, you could listen to the comments of those of us who have gone through this the hard way, and maybe think that we have some knowledge (however flawed in the highest technical sense), that might be useful.

I started out on the computer path when very few people were even thinking about it. There wasn't much software and the hardware could barely do the job. There were many problems with getting a system to work consistently. There was little support, so I had to try different components and software until I got a system that worked. Through the years things have improved, and there may be some decent laptop sound cards out there, but I haven't seen them. I have two P4 laptops, A Dell and an HP, and both have had problems when I used them for karaoke. I stated before, that I tested running karoke when I started on an IBM PI 100Mhz. It worked, but was funky. In between I have owned PII and PIII laptops. They all had the same problems, and some of them had a few new problems. On the top of the list is durability, and with the cost of a good quality laptop, that one always bugged me.

I still think that some of you will experience the problems inherent in laptops in this environment. If you haven't up until now, your lucky. When it does happen, and it spoils your show, or you lose a job because of it...then I hope you will think back to this discussion. When you get a few years under your belt running on a laptop, in multiple venues, come back and tell me, and I will gladly change my mind.

Same here with my Emu-1212m, you can't compare an onboard audio chip with a pro card!

I am not sure if you are referring to me or who, I reread the thread and don't see mention of a sub par PA system until you just brought it up????

And although my laptop was far from cheap I can certainly tell you that a cheap laptop with a quality pro sound card can match (and more likely beat) your $1300 laptop(using onboard sound) anytime for sound quality.

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I have heard this Studebaker Ford argument for years. If you cant make it work then by all means go buy something you can drive.

I defy any of you to come to my show and by listening tell me which I am using laptop or M-Audio Delta44. You will also have to radically change levels on my system to have noise floor problems or overhead problems. Most of the cd players that havnt had the optics cleaned for 3 or 4 months I can hook into your system and blow it away with the sound quality. I can hook up about anything to my system and by adjusting make it sound good.

If I really want an analysis of my system I do it with spectrum analysis and oscope not by ear. And the computer generated sweep signals are more accurate than the old analogue generators.

Show me a spectrum sweep of the deteriated freq drops or noise generated by a laptop AT NORMAL LEVELS. At a typical show when you are running full bore with crowd noise all these arguments are mute anyway Do you people actually run shows?

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Sort of my opinion. Also, I think there have been a lot of changes in the last couple of years, so if you are working off of experience from 3-5 years ago it may not apply now.

There are differences in audio, to be sure. Even I can hear the difference between my M-Audio card and the AC97 in my desktop machine. But I can't hear the difference between the Sigmatel from the laptop and the M-Audio in the desktop, myself. *Maybe* a bit more noise, but that is only when there is no music playing and it is minor.

I am going to listen again this weekend to the USB-connected sound in my Alesis Multimix and see if I see a difference. But when it sounds as good as my M-Audio PCI card, I am guessing I am not going to try an external.

Now, of course no one will argue with you, you can't tell the difference when using a pa system with an eq... There IS a difference in sound, but please, let's be serious, you need to test with a good set of studio monitors or studio headphones to hear the difference!  Also, the same would apply with an mp3 file, I'm sure when using a good encoder it I'll play very good on your pa's?

spectrum analysis

When you can show me a spectrum sweep or an engineers evaluation that supports  your golden ears then I will accept your opinion. I have run a full analysis on my system and have checked a few venues with detailed analysis. Due to 5" and 6" guns shore bombardment and many years of shooting without ear protectors and old age my hearing is not like it used to be. But when I  want to check my system fully I use the tools of an engineer. I am not guessing or evaluating by advise given on internet forums. I know exactly what my system is capable of by a detailed engineers analysis.

If you cant drive a modelA then go buy a cadillac with an automatic transmission!!

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Now of course you'll see similar results if you use a sofware to test both cards, both are capable of giving good performance on paper BUT, the reality is what you hear after the card has converted the sound from digital to analogue.  If you were to compare on paper two pro cards, let's say an EMU-1212m and an M-audio Delta-44, both cards will show similar stats but the reality is, they don't really sound the same, why??? Well, the Emu uses the same A/D converters used in the Digidesign's flagship Pro Tools HD 192 I/O interface which is not the case for the M-Audio.

You can't compare the results on paper and conclude that they will have a similar sound? When you buy speakers, do you buy based on the stats or what you hear?  It's the same, stats is one thing and what you hear is another.

To actually know what  a system sounds like you need to be outside with no wind. Venues play more of a factor in sound than quality. A good sound tech can compensate for any problem. I am going to say this again and holler. AT A SUCCESSFUL SHOW WITH CROWD NOISE AND FULL VOLUME THIS ARGUMENT IS MUTE..

If your system requires a perfect level and perfect audio to start with then let me build you a system and show you some basic audio techniques. My system has no weak links whether by mainframe or laptop. I have run computer karaoke for over 8 years. I am not a newbie or guessing. I have been there done that.

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Heck, some people claim they can hear the difference with cables. If the test is double-blind, that is one thing, but if you know what you are listening to and have any sort of pre-conceived opinion I am guessing that the opinion has as much weight as the ears for most people.

That is not to say there aren't differences in sound -- even I can hear that. But I also know there are people that the pros call "audiophools" who claim to hear all sorts of differences in bogus junk. There's one outfit that relabels a Pioneer CD player and sells it for $3,000. I kid you not.

If someone tells me they buy Monster cables because they hear the difference, then I know to ignore most anything they say.

My last post was on a previous page where some may not see it. So I repeat.

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I CAN'T HEAR WHAT YOUR SAYING MY SOUND CARD IS ACTING UP. COULD YOU POST THAT AGAIN A LITTLE LOUDER?

Man, where have you been before or where was I??? I spent so much time trying to figure out how to come up with a good sound BUT all I had to do was to ask YOU how to do it  Well, I'll know for the future

Sorry, I didn't mean to post that so loud. My Spectral Volume thingy was set wrong. I'll watch out for that in the future.

 LMAO  LMAO  LMAO You people  are nuts!! If you dont respect or take advise from elders then I have no respect for you . Sit there and roll your eyeballs like all kids do. Stick a fork in me I am done.  LMAO  Do it the way you want This is America!!!
 It is also obvious that you have never been in a business meeting and discussed ways  of improving a business. Personally I am tired  of of your immature attitude and need to prove your theories and bolster your ego on the internet. I have a successful karaoke business Do you? If so provide  a link to your web site..

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Doing a side by side test of sound cards laying on a bench is a mute point.

If you buy a cheap computer be it a desk top or a laptop.  You may very well have very bad sounding components.  This includes the cheap motherboard and all the other hardware the sound goes through.

It also depends on how good the sound system is.   Hooking a krappy laptop to a real good sound system will sound better than hooking it to a krappy one.

If you want good sound you don't buy the cheapest computer.  You don't use the cheapest PA system.

If you buy a cheap computer and you change the sound card, yeah anything would make a noticable change.    Doesn't mean it's the best that computer can sound because it's still full of other cheap parts.  

To try to insure you have the best sound, then you need to custom order the computer and load it with the best parts you can buy.   Not the cheapest.    A laptop sound card made by the same company that has the same specs as the desktop card should be the same quality just smaller.

As mentioned it also matters to the quality of the ripped songs.   And the CDs they were ripped from.  

Just to say my sound card is best won't cut it.  You could still be hurting the sound from the other inferior internal parts.

And cable size matters.   Just like the mixer, speakers, amplifier and everything else the sound runs through before you hear it.

I have maintained the most complicated missle systems the Navy has I have an EE and BSdegree in engineering For a time I was the chief engineer of a tv station. I am tired of arguing with you kids and will no longer give tech advise on this forum which is worth about $200 an hour. From now on if you want advise it is no longer free. If you want a sound system install it is $800.  If you want advise it is $200 for an engineers analysis.

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Well I've just bought a creative sound card off Ebay.   I'll let you know my thought after I install it and try it out.

If you run a $10,000 sound card on a $300 computer the sound card will be lucky to sound like a $75 sound card.   Because it's quality will be degraded by all of the other inferior components.    You have to have a quality base to build on.   You will never reach it's full $10,000 potential.  So in essence you have wasted $9,925.00.   Trying to solve a problem the $10,000 sound card could never fix.    It's only a sound card, it can't perform miracles, so it's not going to improve the quailty of the motherboard or all the other things it has to route the sound through.   Think about the 3 little pigs.   Only one had the right idea.    A top quality sound card can't fix the inadequacies of krappy computer.

It amazes me that everyone wants to buy the cheapest computer they can get to do karaoke.   Why would you buy a cheap off the shelf computer and wonder why the sound or the video isn't what it should be.    You weren't buying a Cadillac to begin with.   But now you want to make it one.   With one expensive part swap.    I can't understand that logic.     A shot gun and a BB gun both shoot BBs.   Dumping a hundred BBs down the barrell of the BB gun will never make it a shot gun.

If you are going to do a total upgraded part swap to get the sound you think you should have had in the first place, you should have paid for the higher priced computer the first time.  And you would have had the biggest hard drive and ripped the songs at the highest quality bit rate.    A degraded rip isn't going to magically become higher quality.  

There are a lot of factors to this.    As Ollie says, first you would have to have something to compare the song quality to.    I have no way of knowing the actual quality of the sound of my ripped songs.     Without side by side listening, on top quality studio equipment, (not my computer or yours) i'll never really know what i'm hearing and missing.   Compared to the original disc recording.   But my odds of hearing the most i can are higher if the computer i'm using started out at a higher quality.