Karaoke Forums

And your point about buying the bar is, Mcky?

I wasn't buying the bar, Eric. I was talking about working for fun and recognition and the crazy things people will come up with when you are a topic of conversation.

What was the point of questioning my anecdote, Eric?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well, let's put it this way, if someone came up and asked you about your sexual orientation, would you have included that in your post under "recognition"?
I just didn't and still don't get the point about including the question regarding whether you're buying the bar?

What point? Are you nuts or something? Do you know what an anecdote is? Have you heard of fun? Conversation?

I suggest that if you are pointing a finger at others as to why your gigs aren't going, you might look at the three pointing back at you.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Dr. Fred Said:

Let's put this in perspective, -- regardless of the "going rate for entertainment" in your area -- this is not a "professional question." A "professional" gets paid for their services, -- not just a gratuity. Whether that gratuity is in the form of 3 drinks or $21 for 6 hours of "effort" it isn't by most standards the definition of "professional."


You are not --as much as you'd like it to be different-- "a professional in the business."

Is the guy on the street corner blowing a saxophone with a hat on the ground by your definition;

(1) A Professional musician

(2) A Hobbyist saxophone entertainer

(3) A vagrant

(4) None of the above?


You claim to be asking a "professional question" when by your own admission, you do NOT get paid for your services, you simply exist hoping that someone will hand you money as a gratuity.

You have a day job, then why are you getting paid there? Why not just work and let your employer "tip you" based on your worthwhile contribution to his bottom line?

If the entertainement value in your area is worth next to ZERO, what it the reason for this? Too much competion? Too much competiton and they all are not worth paying? I think your venues in your area realize that they can get away without paying anything for entertainment and that they've been trained to think that way by "entertainers" that work the same way you do. What is their incentive to pay for entertainment EVER if folks like you will do it for free? As long as there are those who will provide entertainment for free, that will be the going rate.

You are in the midst of what those of us that do get paid worry about: driving the price of entertainment to ZERO.

You are in a position to do only 2 things:

(1) Keep doing what you're doing as a hobby and don't complain about it.

(2) Actually provide an entertainment service that is worthy of getting paid despite the other "freebie entertainers" in your area.

It's your choice to make, but either way, a gratuity is still only a tip and not what professionals consider as part of their compensation package (unless you're a waiter or waitress).

I don't need a shovel. I get paid well for my PROFESSIONAL service. I do not ask nor receive tips.

Dr Fred, you live in an area of a population of over 100,000 in Athens and over 175,000 for the county total (Athens included). I also live in a University city (5 universities, and several collages) and we get many many students. There is no reason why entertainmant should be free or nearly free. As SwingKat says you, DJs & KJs, and the bands have allowed this.

You also said you don't need the tips, yet you complain about getting very little in tips. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. It makes no sense.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

it's the basics of a hobbiest (someone who does something for fun or no profit) VS a professional (someone who not only supports their business with their money they take in, but hopefully will actually come out of the RED.)

Even speaking in basics, Fred... if you don't make enough to replace broken microphones, cables, gear or music, then for every night you run your show, that's frustration building nightly. Why would you subject yourself to such an extreme version of self-abuse? Sure you're having fun doing it, but that bar is laughing themselves silly at the guy that is begging them to let him play karaoke for tips.

It's obvious you make little to nothing doing it? How can you continue to support your endeavor like this?

You are hauling in YOUR equipment, music and providing your talent... HOW can you not charge for that?

I realize saturation is key here... but if you're doing a good job, shucks dude, don't you think you're worth even $50 a night? For bringing entertainment to a willing bar?

I find it hard to believe that an entire area gets away with refusing to pay for any form of entertainment. It couldn't have always been that way. It "probably" started out a pretty good area for entertainers but then the undercutters started lowering the "bar", so to speak. There was probably a time when KJs were getting $175 per gig and someone trying to get into the KJ business went into an existing show and told the bar owner that he would provide karaoke for $125. The next guy who wanted to become a KJ went out and bought a pre loaded hard drive from someone on e-bay and offered to do the gig for $75. That guy hired someone to do a gig for him when he was out of town for one reason or another and that "friend" of his copied his entire hard drive and decided to go into the karaoke business as well and he told the bar owner that he had so much fun KJing that he would do the show for dinner and a free bar tab. The other bar owners all find out about this "free" form of entertainment and they all figure, what is good for "MURPHY'S BAR" is good for my bar too.

And that is how undercutters kill the business for everyone else.

And that's why, IMHO, why those of us who really understand the business collaborate with one another to find ways to distinguish ourselves from the under-cutters! And one way is to help the owners make more money when we do the show as compared to the under-cutters.

Mckyj

Strictly speaking, an anecdote is a verbal account that is comprised of:
a. little known entertaining facts of history or biography
b. a short, entertaining account of some happening, usually personal or biographical

Synonyms: story, tale, narrative, incident, narration

Aside from being personal, what was entertaining, or even informative, about the fact that there are locals who thought you were buying the bar?

Were you trying to impress us with just how important you are around your haunts?
Were you trying to impress us with the fact that you just purchased a new car during this overstated economic "crisis"
Were you trying to impress us with the fact that your locals think you have money?
Were you trying to reveal to and impress us that you do have money?

And who is nuts me or you? You recently noted that you had made "mincemeat" out an argument of mine. However, you redefined my "argument" to fit your crazy interpretation of it and, in effect, argued against your own contrived premise(s)! And since none of YOUR premises remotely paralleled my position, that I would call nuts!

Not only is it not the singers responsibility to pay him, but tipping etiquette says that you don't tip the owner of a business. They're supposed to set their prices at a level that adequately compensates them for their services, and they're already making money simply by virtue of your patronage.

I think this whole thing is hilarious. He expects his patrons to see his value and reward him for it, but he's not willing to do it himself. If you think you're worthless, don't expect anyone else to see any worth in you either.

Charity work is DJing at a children's hospital or providing an afternoon of karaoke at a retirement home. Working for free at an event that is put on for profit isn't charity, it's stupidity.

I don't see him as complaining so much as he is now trying to determine his worth and asked what the norm was--even though his situation is obviously not the norm. I think that for a crowd of 100, $20 is insulting but most of the patrons probably feel that they have paid enough for the entertainment by buying drinks. Even though the announcement for tips is being made, they probably think it is the bar's responsibility to pay the KJ--especially if the bar raises its prices when there is entertainment, as some do.

I understand why he entered into his arrangement to begin with but now he is bringing in way too many people for the bar owner to plead poverty. Time to renegotiate or if he still wants to stick to the arrangement of providing this service to his friends then they need to be asked to each contribute a set amount. Even just $1.00 each from 100 patrons would help to pay expenses. $2 each would be a payday.

Do the bands in that town resent the KJs for displacing their business opportunities because it is cheaper to hire a KJ at #150 than to pay a band a living wage? Or is that a really old can of worms?

I have been sitting here for 10 minutes wondering if I should submit that last paragraph so I probably shouldn't but.......

Who knows?

Bands always competed with solo acts. DJ's became an alternative to both bands and solo acts long before karaoke came along.

Anyway, what's the point regarding bands?

And, from the little I read I can't interpret Fred's comments to be anything but a complaint.

And who wouldn't complain after working so hard when the circumstances make you question whether others are valuing your efforts? Maybe you even become filled with doubts about your worth?

yeah, and you're on the right road i see...
..it seems "nobody is home" with that crack. BTW, WHO exactly are Y-O-U??
...hopefully not ANOTHER Troll or a "Hit It & Quit It" newbie....

As to the band issue---how many have i heard complain that karaoke put me out of business?? Tooooo many!! The truth of the matter is that if they were GOOD ENOUGH TO HAVE A FOLLOWING that would come and make a bar some money--then they would continue to have gigs. But an ordinary band that had no following and they continue to play to an empty room----well how can u blame a bar owner for not having bands and trying karaoke instead?? Thats simply economics and business. If the bands pulled a crowd---they would contiue to have gigs. If they couldnt pull a crowd they dont keep a gig or be asked to return. No matter how good of a musicians they are. Boils down to $$$ generated for the venue. But what I see in the current market is that many places have a mix of bands AND Karaoke. So eveyone wins. Custies get choice and variety. KJ's get paid. Live music continues to be played. Bands make some money. And the bar owner makes a profit with both.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Are you envious or something? I can't tell if it is my new car, my status, or how busy my gig is that you are jealous of. Maybe all of them.


You were the one blaming others for your problems, going so far as to blame non-drinkers singing at the karaoke show for your lack of success.

Don't worry, I won't be commenting any more on your finger-pointing and bellyaching. You are now on the very short list of people whose posts I don't see.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Dr Fred - I still think asking for a $1 a song isn't out of line if the bar isn't paying you.
You can announce that you use it to cover your costs for up keep and new songs for the patrons because you do not get paid to be there. I can't imagine people would have a problem with that.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Mcky


Of course I'm envious of you. Isn't everybody? Don't we all envy someone who is self-centered and thinks so much of themselves?

And once again you proved that you're incapable of comprehending English or you have an illness that causes you create you own anecdotes in everything you hear.

Why do I say that?

A) The lack of success you accuse me of bellyaching about is solely in your mind.
B) My first rants about freeloaders like yourself began in early 2007, and reflected my feelings solely as a customer observing fellow singers, prima donnas like yourself, who don't spend money! I wasn't doing karaoke gigs yet; I was just out spending a lot of money supporting the shows I enjoyed! And while you wouldn't remember, because facts elude you, I mentioned going out and supporting my favorite shows when throat problems kept me from singing!
NOTE: As a businessman and singer, I know that tipping LARGE, as you suggest you do, and being welcomed back by the wait staff does nothing, nada, zilch for the venue and for karaoke. Yeah, I know, you've explained how the business benefits from having a happy wait staff - Geez, give me a break. If the business closes both the wait staff and KJ are out of work. Your measly tip to a wait person will not secure their job! And traveling to hundreds of karaoke shows throughout the country means nothing to karaoke if you just tip large when you arrive at the show. The owners at the karaoke venues do not share in the hotels' and airlines' revenues!
C) And you say I blame people like you, freeloaders, for my lack of success. I never blamed anyone for anything regarding my karaoke shows. Furthermore, my rants against freeloaders like you had begun by March of 2007; my first paid gig wasn't until late, July, 2007. So, when I turned the "headlights" on folks like you back in early 2007 it was not due to any lack of success, it was due to a concern for the shows I was attending!
D) If I did have something to bellyache about as a KJ, I might suggest that karaoke jobs are getting scarcer because people like you make it so hard for owners to see a profit in having karaoke.
E) And I do blame freeloaders like you for the failure of so many good, but economically marginal shows that have gone to the wayside here!
F) Meanwhile, by November of 2007 I had two gigs and turned down a third -- more success than I can handle!
G) In May of 2008, as I've noted on occasion, my mom died! Living in Florida and dealing with her estate in Vegas left me unable to be involved with doing gigs. In fact I've just started doing them again late last month! ! So I don't know where I would have had the time as a KJ to bellyache about a "lack of success"? Clearly, my lack of success is a reality only in your mind as is your supposed importance!
H) And you really should have no concern about my "lack of success". Everyone experiences a lack of success from time to time. For most of us it's reason to try to do better and to try again. If you've never failed you've never tried!(Oops! Did I just twist the words in your post as you so typically do mine?)

The preceding alone, ignoring what I could retrieve from the forum archives, is enough to convince me you are definitely a man to trifle with. But of course you'll never be trifled with at any show that has a NADY!

And if I were you, I'd suggest that you instruct your "help" that they shouldn't be discussing your personal business and finances with the customers.

I don't know what world you live in, but I am definitely not going there! At the risk of repeating myself... I was taught not to argue with a fool, because the casual observer will be unable to discern which of the two of you is the fool.

And I have to admit that arguing with a fool does, in fact, make one a fool. And, of course, there are many, many casual observers on this forum. Goodbye!

Eric, I have been waiting all my life for such a cunning linguist...will you marry me?

To be honest sir, I have always been quite impressed with your turn of phrase...you may whisper in my ear any time

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."