Karaoke Forums

Dr. Fred said:


Wrong.

After over 15 years in this business, I've learned that private parties very seldom ever come from bar patrons. Putting out a "lot of shows" in bars is not going to help you other than to establish your reputation as purely a bar jock. People that want to book you out of a bar show expect bar rates as well and there's simply no percentage in accepting that. People that want to book you for a private party that have seen you (and liked what they saw) at a private function, will fully expect something different and they're willing to accept it.



Like anything in business, it is a process and in this case it's a process that takes time to develop, but only a couple big mistakes to end it quickly. Word of mouth is the fastest method to success OR failure.




That cycle will continue only as long as anyone is willing to play it. We don't. If they really want to save that much money, I'll direct them to a rental company in the area and wish them the best of luck.

As I mentioned in my other post, this business is caving in on itself and when it does, I have other plans.

I don't know, I just look at it this way. Sure anyone can buy the equipment necessary to do this job and sell themselves as a KJ or DJ. Just the same way as anyone can go buy a $1000 Digital SLR and sell themselves as a photographer. There's no training required there either and all you need to do is point and shoot to get pictures out of it. Doesn't mean they'll be good. You get what you pay for.

So for about the 10th time now this is being said in this thread. It's not about how much skill the position takes, it's about what the market will bear. Some folks understand that you get what you pay for and are willing to pay more for a KJ. Others are happy with any Joe running Karaoke and will look for the cheapest deal they can find.

There are definitely placed out there willing to pay for getting better results. I've made no secret of it on this board, I charge higher than most of the KJ's in my area. I do it because I believe I'm worth it. I get hired by club owners who apparently agree that I'm worth it. Thing is I'm willing to tell a venue when they call looking for a 4 hour show for $125 that they simply can't afford me. It sounds cocky but it's not, it's simply the truth. I won't take that level of pay so if they can't afford my fees they can't afford me, they can call up the next KJ on their list or they can meet my fee requirements. It's that simple. So if the market feels I'm worth it to get paid what I ask, why would I even think of taking a show at a lower rate?

And once again we're back to what the market will support and what's reasonable considering we are running a Business to Business operation here and we are not simply employees of a corporation. We're not overpaid and the way I see it, the only KJ that would suggest we are is some undercutting hack who sees a way to try and get more shows by driving prices down for all of us.

On a side note: I disagree that it is not a skilled position. It is. Just because licensing isn't required doesn't mean it isn't. I've never been trained as a plumber or electrician but I know how to rough plub and finish plumb a house, I know how to completely install service in a home consistent with code too. The only reason I can't do the job is because I'm not licensed (which has certain training requirements). I guess this argument comes down to how you define a skilled trade.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

"Bar jockey" is a poor term. One is either professional and polished or not, whether one works in bars or private parties. We work 6 nights a week with a proviso for being able to do private parties on Sat (I fill in then). We get the prices we ask for. I have no doubt that many professional host can do bars, private parties, corporate gigs etc without a problem.

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I seem to agree more with Timber and Letitrip on this subject, but that may be because I'm a bar jockey.

I used to do private parties, but now will only do my bar gig - unless someone begs. Some people I have a hard time saying no to.

It's guaranteed money every week and I don't have the hassle of setup/teardown, advertising expenses etc... For me it fits my lifestyle better because I do have a full time job also. I have to say it is less work for me not to take on the private parties anymore, but I don't think I'm less skilled because I stopped.

I do agree that working private parties you develop different skills. You need to learn how to adapt to new environments and people quickly. Knowing how to setup your equipment in different environments and curtail the entertainment to fit the crowd at the drop of a hat.

Bar gigs have there own challenges that are different from private parties. I find I deal with more drunks and bad attitudes in that environment.

I don't think anyone is better because they do private parties only, bar gigs only or both. Do I think you find more hacks in bars, YEP.

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Timberlea, as usual it is semantics. When I use the term "bar jockey" it applies to usually multiriggers who will grab any warm body to run their gear for them. These people could NOT successfully perform private gigs. Bar jockeys also invest minimally in gear and most of the time have no CLUE how to use it correctly. In other words, they can be successful in small to medium sized bars to a minimum but out of that environment they'd be lost.

Exactly !

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The bottom line is "we" ( the good KJ's) need to ask for MORE compensation in 2010. Only then will the market price move upwards.

Facts:
The amount of money you charge has no bearing on the type of KJ or show you provide

Just because a KJ charges $50 per show less does not mean they are LOUSY or PIRATES

If you get $300 per show that alone does not make you a GOOD KJ

Bar Gigs and Private parties are 2 distinct animals and should never be compared

I do much the same. I have done private parties and weddings in addition to the bar scene. Like you said the fact is the bar scene for me is my regular income and the private shows are the gravy. Now if you're going to try to make consistent cash doing private gigs, obviously bar gigs would have to take a back seat, so I can see the other viewpoint on this. But I think a KJ can be successful doing both.

And Jam, I couldn't agree more with your points!!

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

There is a difference between a company and an employee. If I was just a kj working for a bar or company then I wouldn't expect as high of a wage, but i'm a company owner, I buy each and every piece, I am researching new music at least 3-4 hours a day from various sources. Unskilled? I think not, it is very skillful in the way you can deal with and hold a crowd and bring them back. Skills involved in how to know how to run the sound gear and set it up properly (I have & still take sound engineering courses when local music shops offer them).
Just because you don't go to school for something don't mean there are no skills involved. ANY job you have to learn basic 'skills'.

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WHERE'S the emoticon for splitting hairs?????

Bar Jocks

Skills

Sorry, I don't think that's true.

You can't tell me that a KJ with ratty gear, who mumbles into the microphone with the same catch phrases ("Give it up for...") and a 1500-song foundation library of discs can command as much money as another KJ with premium gear, a great speaking voice and hosting talents, and a digital library of 10,000 songs. If only for the simple reason that better venues want better talent for their customers. The mumbling guy might well be worth <$100 to some 50-seat dive bar, but a 200-seat pub who might be paying $200 isn't going to risk its reputation and insult their clientele with that kind of substandard entertainment offering.


Pirates, no. Lousy, yes. Why would any KJ with any kind of decent show or talent only think they're worth $50 for the night? Unless perhaps they're a frustrated singer themselves simply looking for an audience. If you're getting $300 from a bar, that most often means you are generating an above-average amount of revenue. And I've yet to see sucky KJs who can make that happen.


Why not? Don't they both basically require the same set of skills and gear? Certainly there are some KJs who can do both well. I've found it more likely that any KJ who primarily does private parties can do a bar gig...but not always vice versa.

For that reason, to unilaterally insist that we're worth more so bars should pay us more is burying our heads in the sand. What we're worth to a bar is in direct proportion to the amount of revenue we generate. But not only that. It's about the saturation of other KJs as well. If a bar owner is convinced that someone charging $150 can do the same job as the one they're paying $200 a week, they're likely to "try them out". I've seen many such posts on this board where a KJ gets undercut and loses a gig. Rarely do they get those gigs back.

As an aside to Lonman, if you're spending 3-4 hours a day researching music, with all due respect, you need some other hobbies! Even club DJs who play the latest tracks don't do that much "homework" even though maybe 100 new songs are released each week.

I think your diligence is admirable, but there are only a handful of karaoke companies releasing new tracks, and they only do so once a month. How does that take 20+ hours a week? I agree that it's important to stay up on the latest tunes and trends, but the karaoke world simply doesn't have that many new innovations to require that much prep time.

If we are to get more money in 2010, we need to find ways to get more people through the doors of our venue. To me that screams PROMOTION! We have to be willing to go above and beyond our 4-5 hour show to make that happen.

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Because that's what I do. New stuff is being released daily somewhere & some of it is stuff that i've had requests for & would like to get if it becomes available. I may have exaggerated the 2-3 hours daily dedicated to the song research, but that is part of my daily routine as far as maintenence, research (for anything) and other things. Sometimes I do take that time especially when i'm ready for a new disc buy & it does take a couple hours a day to check sites from all over looking for songs the customers want to sing.

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First, you may want to read jam's post a little closer and think about your response. He didn't say a KJ taking $50 for a show, he said a KJ taking $50 less than another KJ for a show. His point is fairly valid. All here, including you, have complained about the clueless clients who pay for garbage hosts when they could have better for the same money. Your points are somewhat valid but in the end what a KJ is getting paid is not a reliable measure of their value.

I quit a gig that was paying me $300 a show. Fact was they were paying me because I came highly recommended to them and they claimed to really want to take on one of the biggest Karaoke bars in their area. Well shortly after I started it became clear that they weren't as committed as they thought. They'd cancel shows at the last minute, "forget" to promo the show, and really did nothing that a normal bar would do to try and build a Karaoke night. Despite the money I quit because I could see the writing on the wall. At no point did I ever get enough revenue flowing through that place to justify what they were paying me. They were just very gung ho and I was lucky enough that another client of mine knew the guy who had just taken over running that bar.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Wow. -not to judge how people use their time, but i only spend like ONE HOUR a WEEK looking for requested songs from my singers. Then i download them and in less than 4 minutes they've been burned to disc and ready to go.

I rarely need to spend anytime on karaoke outside of the job itself unless it's maintenence or something needs to be replaced.

I suppose i'd rather spend more time outside and with my wife (no kids yet) and RETREAT from karaoke while i can, unless i'm supporting a friend's show.

5 days a week is enough!

Karaoke Scene is the ONLY forum i ever go on work-releated or not, and that is to learn more from the techies here. Other than here, the computer and tv aren't used very much daily.

TO EACH HIS OWN...but i used to (admittedly) let my profession become my obsession until it started costing me in my health, although short term. (bad discs, insomnia, migraines, poor-eating habits, tendonitis in one arm from overuse).


It WAS worth the monetray gains and i was building my own company, but BALANCE is KEY here. I SHOULD HAVE kept a MUCH better perspective on everything, and i might still have a few friends left i ostracized and family members i ignored and was less-than-patient with. It took a few years to mend those relationships.

One of my good friends who got me into this business has MISSED seeing his 3 kids grow outta diapers and into pull-ups because he's too obsessed with business details. And his wife/secretary is almost the same. The NANNY has single handedly raised the 3 kids, and the parents will NEVER be able to get those PRICELESS moments again, because they were striving after the wind too much, imho.

But i digress.... in the end HOW we choose to use our time is our own...wasteful or not. I just think it's sad to see some people not seeing the real value of family moments and the time-stealing that gets done from your "job". -not worth it imo.

Anyways sorry for the novel/rant!

Nowadays, i'd rather SURF! 40 FOOT WAVES like we're having today! Gotta Go! SURF's UP DUDES!!!!! -john

You say they would cancel shows? The second show they cancelled, I would have been out of there.

But you have to admit that most bars designate a night of the week for karaoke and have it every week. Sure, if there's a big football game (if you're gigging on Saturday, Sunday or Monday) or some other special pay-per-view (UFC, boxing, etc.) I can see putting the karaoke on hold for that one night.

The way you were treated at this bar seems more the exception than the rule. No competent bar owner/manager is spending $300 on entertainment and then not promoting it or cancelling it with no notice so that people coming in the door expecting karaoke are disappointed.

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It's no different than any job that requires you to work more than you think you should need to.

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Huh??? Whatever do you mean???

Dan

Just because 1 KJ charges $300 night and another $150 per night it does not mean one is better than the other. My statement is valid. Why would a GREAT KJ work for $150 and why would a venue pay $300 to a substandard KJ are valid questions but one hads nothing to do with the other.

And Bar gigs and private gigs are 2 distinct animals and any mobile KJ/DJ knows this to be true. Not sure why you would dispute this?

Not sure how many shows you visit , but in my experiance I've witnessed MANY MANY shows that would be considered "below average" on the karaoke scene scale YET they draw in crowds and make the BARS LOADS MONEY.

Some customers don't really care if you have $150 speakers versus $600 ones or $50 mics versus $300 ones. We here understand the differances between quality pro audio and SO SO gear. But a show with SO SO gear can be GREAT and PROFITABLE . just the way it is ??

Actually ignore that post, I was responding to something else entirely.

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I'm not sure I follow you here. A venue would NOT pay $300 to a substandard KJ - where did I say that? A great KJ might agree to $150 if that's the top end of what KJs get in their market and the KJ wants to work.

I agree that bar gigs and private gigs are different and have different pay scales...again, where did I say otherwise? The amount bars pay for entertainment is an investment. They are making that expenditure hoping it will return 10 times as much in drinks sold. People who have private parties want to impress their friends and guests. They'll might rent out a hotel ballroom and spend a fortune on ice sculptures. They are more concerned with the quality of the entertainment - since it is a direct reflection on them - and don't mind paying more for it. It's not unusual for me to get paid $800 or more for a private karaoke party...something that would be unheard of for a bar!


I visit a LOT of shows. The scenario of which you speak has more to do with the venue than the talent. Particularly in tourist towns, there are usually a couple of bars that have established themselves as THE party place. You go there because everyone else goes there. The KJ might be merely adequate, with adequate gear and library, but is able to systematically churn people through the rotation.


Totally depends on the room and how "serious" the singers are. You can get a ton of party people who are just there to shriek "You Give Love A Bad Name" and as long as it's loud, they don't care how it sounds. Others who have a deeper interest in singing songs which aren't belted out require a more sensitive mic and better sound reproduction equipment. And in this day and age of media penetration and iPods in everyone's pocket, you don't need to be an audiophile to recognize BAD sound.

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