Karaoke Forums

First off, bands & karaoke are very different.  You do not become a musician with the expectations of making money.  The bars know this as well & sometimes the only thing the band will make is the take at the door.  Also many bands that play for cheap or next to nothing are usually original acts & they don't need to purchase any pa equipment as most bars that hold original acts supply the pa.  Many cover bands do need to buy their own pa, but most cover acts will make on average $300-500 for a weekend...even starting out.



Of course, that goes without saying.



No that's not a fact anymore.  If you are good has nothing to do with anything anymore especially if someone offers the service for free, no one will pay for that service again.



How can you develop the reputation to be worth getting paid when others do it for free?  No one will pay if they know they can get it for free.  Even if it's bad, they aren't out anything & will move on to the next cheapest or free company.  



This is where you are wrong, once bars get wind that the free companies or cheap next to nothing companies exist, they aren't going to pay a good wage anymore.



Again, bands do not get into it to make money (unless they are just the egotistcal idiots that don't know better) & this is a case where a bar WILL pay a band once they are drawing bigger crowds.  Karaoke is not the case, if a company is charging nothing & the bar is getting a crowd, why on earth would the bar PAY another company to get the same crowd?



I think even the best kj's have had those nights, if it's the norm, then the bar either shouldn't have karaoke as it won't work, or they need to change out their entertainment.



Disagree.  Bands & karaoke are not the same.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I COMPLETELY agree that most of the newer karaoke singers out today have no clue what singing on a good quality system & quality music selections are.  
Good quality bar karaoke will be virtually non-existant in the next few years leaving ONLY the crappy low budget systems with crappy quality selection with hosts that plain don't give a rip.  But this will be the norm so none of the newer singers will question it, they'll just think that's what it's supposed to sound like.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Let me make sure i have this right? anyone who enjoys singing and hosting a karaoke show, at a local neighborhood bar or club free. As a hobbie, pastime, entertainment for friends, relatives. Or even as a training to becmome a better KJ. stinks, has inferior equipment, is dooming the entire karaoke industry, causing club owners to act irresponsible, and prostitute themselves businesswise. Is going to run all the KJ out of business, have nothing but pirated disc they stoled, or got off someone illegally. May i take the liberty of adding, is a drunk, is on crack, abuses his mother, doesn't have a day job. Ummmm..oh yeah goes around undercutting "Real" KJs. HAHA...i have the solution...... One on one therapy, prozac, and meds for your Bi~Polor, manic depressive, vegitative state. I mean give it a rest.If you have to sit there and worry about a few Dr Freds, or "Sailormans" out there, or those who enjoy doing karaoke at a local bar between the games, you have big big problems. I may be wrong, sure won't be the last time. But i just don't worry about little chit like this. I have been in the entertainment business for 35 years. And i can pretty well read a club owner. If he says...."man two hundred is all i can afford to pay a night...with the drunk driving laws and people afraid to go out." I sure as hell, am not going to get a gun and shoot ole Randy at the corner bar doing it for free....get real.   Now have a nice day.

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

I think an unproven KJ asking even $100 a show until they can prove that they can draw a crowd is bad for the industry.

In any other entertainment form, one has to prove one's value as an entertainer first.

To expect that one "deserves" $200 or more for working 4-5 hours is a right is just foolish. The equipment need to be a KJ is not incredible. If you are going to be worth $500 to do a private party or $200 for a bar gig, you better be a great entertainer. Prove it.

DJs are the perfect example. Thousands of people are unpaid DJs, either for their private parties or in bars. BUT a good DJ gets paid more than a KJ. Why? They are selected to be the best.

The TRUTH is... it's still a classic example of supply and demand. Just because a person might have to spend thousands of dollars on a legit CDG collection, doesn't mean they're going to be a good KJ and put on a good show. In the same vein, just because someone pirates their CDG collection, it doesn't follow logically that they're going to put on a bad show. Maybe they invested their money in equipment instead of CDGs. Maybe they're an awesome KJ, and have crappy equipment, but people really enjoy their personality and come to see them anyway?

Pirating has nothing to do with the quality of the karaoke show you're giving. KJ skill is far more important.

Everyone is entitled to do what they wish with their time and money as long as it's legal and nobody gets hurt.

I have no problem with someone learning the trade, or even starting at a lower rate to learn the trade. However there are plenty of ways to accomplish that without screwing up the pricing in the local area you do it in. For instance find a Bar that has their own system and hire on there for an hourly rate or for drinks or lower pay and learn your craft, or find a KJ who needs some fill in work and learn from them and do it for free or for drinks. You can accomplish the same results by trying these methods.

I'm not suggesting that you are singlehandedly bringing down the karaoke business in your area, rather that if you get enough folks working for peanuts then thats what the bars will eventually migrate towards paying. A few here or a few there does not hurt anyone, however we have an overabundance of them here in our area and it has had a negative affect on KJ business here. Several of us on this board are or were from this area and know the score.

The multi riggers have done their share of harm as well. It's all bad for business.

My comments are not meant as a personal attack on anyone. This is my opinion on the matter and you need not defend yourself to me regarding your actions. Time will tell who is correct with regards to their opinion. Everything has cause and effect associated with it. I just don't like what I see happening in the industry and hopefully it will come full circle and right itself.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Syber you are 100% correct. Dr Fred, you also in my opinion are correct. I have a day job, i don't need to worry about karaoke. plus i play in a band, and slave 6 days a week making the company rich.. I kj for about what it cost me. By the time i figure in gas, gear, CDG's, my time, when i come right down to it. Even though i get paid, i still do it for free. Where i make my money is on private jobs. Weddings, pool parties, i have done karaoke on a boat even. Christmas, and new years eve, i just charge to the max. The later they wait to call me, the more i charge'em. I know what clubs are paying bands, and i make more then they do, and still do it for basiclly nothing.  :worship:

PS...the cute kid in my avatar is my daughter, she's my best friend, and my kid

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

Thanks

The cute kid in MY avatar is my son The gal who looks like she's about to fall over from sleep deprivation is me.

Your son is beautiful. I just love kids, my daughter and her friends keep me young. I am a single parent, and i am learning about what you gals go through. I know your little one is a full time job. He's looks like a real sweetie... God Bless George

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

I agree that the two may not be always linked, but I think there is a correlation. To be a good karaoke KJ takes maturity, attention to detail, and dedication. One needs to care about what they are doing to be a good KJ.

Now how do we measure commitment to being a good KJ? Well if someone is willing to spend a lot of their own money on a karaoke songs is one sign. Doing things legally is another sign of maturity. It suggests that they are thinking to the future and plan on doing KJ for the long term.

Sure some personalty and good personal skills etc are part of being a KJ and that is not going to be linked to legal karaoke songs.

On the other hand someone who has spent the time organizing and obtaining legal songs has something invested. Such a person is more likely to make sure the songlist is correct, and the gear is in working order.

Same with having the money to do a good job on it. Not everyone has money, sure, and some dont get into the KJ field for lack of funds, but having the surplus money or the ablity to take out a loan suggests maturity and sometimes that reflects in part on KJ ability. Having the money to do it also sometimes suggests that one is mature enough to have a work ethic, and a major criticism of many KJs is that they are just lazy.

Sure the two things are not absolute but I dont think they are unrelated.

As for the spoiled brats who just inherited the money, and do karaoke legally because the cash cost is not a sacrifice, well they will get bored before their first gig it is too much work.

And yes, Cute Kid

I am a total amateur. I don't do bar gigs, or any for-pay gigs at all. I just do volunteer stuff for friends and non-profit organizations. Have never accepted a dime.

At least until tomorrow. I am doing a party for a friend, and she insists on paying me! I am receiving a fee even though I told her I would do it for free. She said she has seen my show (at my house, at one of my parties) and says my sound, singing, and personality are as good or better than any of the hosts she sees out at the bars.

But I am still going to do what I like doing. The advantage for me is that I don't have to do it except when I want to. I was encouraged to take over a bar gig but I turned it down. I can't commit to doing it every week, and I don't want to have to deal with it. Also, I have never done a gig with drunks around, so I am not sure I know quite how to handle them. I never see any trouble around here, but then again I am an early bird and am rarely there at closing time....

I didn't know this thread was still around, obviously it is however this caught my eye.



And ?  This means what ?   None of us should bother spending time here ?   Nobody should be a KJ ?  It's entirely useless ?   While this phrase is too often used, IMHO it's absurd to use "It's just" in a setting where most take a big interest in it. "It's just" so the hell with it ? let it go to trash ?  It's just a wrong attitude to take assuming you spend time participating in it !!   In such a setting it's backwards and counterproductive to mimimize it.  I'm not even a KJ,  but I wish to see quality Karaoke, and quality bands continuing to produce GOOD backing so I can enjoy singing.  Or is it "Just music" too ?  "Just karaoke' had a huge draw for a long time, it was a main source of bar entertainment (bar revenue) for quite a long period.

Quality entertainers are a GOOD thing !  Beit musicians, DJ's, KJ's, Comedians, you name it.   Don't belittle those that wish for some quality, and standards to remain in  entertainment areas.



Exactly Croakdog,  It's like the debate where folks were blaming immigrants for jumping our borders without considering that businesses here were actually giving them incentive to do-so.  Similarly,  Do you blame the job applicants lack of qualifications assuming the business owner is hiring his level of ability deeming the pro too costly and overqualified ?  This is the crux of the problem.  It's NOT JUST the undercutter who's to blame.  There are LOADS of factors to take into consideration.  

1)  Is Karaoke a fad on the decline.
2)  Do bar owners believe paying more for the pro given their demographics and
     the times today yields only diminishing returns. They can't recoop the payout ?

Problem is, like it or not.. Bars are HIRING these hacks.  There's a market for them. Is it sound reasoning to blame ONLY them without looking at the overall business model ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I dont know... Im not going to debate these concepts anymore but in never ceases to amaze me It seems we are 6 months to a years ahead of everybody else and when I try to explain trends OH   NO NO It aint that way!!  Then finally some catch up while others dont.

Karaoke is so different now than whats presented here its not even funny. The shoe stringers and fly by nighters are gone However there is a new generation that grew up in their teens with karaoke machines at home in the bars now. I didnt want to get big rotations anymore WE had over 30 sat barely over 21 (plus regs). And they are good They are awesome. They are not typical guzzling drunks. They are not worried about old antiquated rules They are not fanatics they are singers. The crowds here and the singers are fully sophisticated about karaoke and know it inside  and out.

Cream rises to the top unless you keep stirring the milk all the time ..

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Which is why I believe demographics plays a HUGE part of this too Ollie.  Around here there just aren't jobs for a good KJ, or lousy KJ for that matter.. 12 years ago things were VERY different.



I believe the business demand end is what brings out the hacks Flipper. I don't believe in most cases the quality entertainers can create and sustain a market for themselves assuming conditions aren't conducive to higher payout, and don't require the pro KJ in certain cases where overall nightclub revenue is down for any number of reasons (Again I cite demographics and northeast, I can't know what Portland is like).  Bars are satisfied paying less, and as business people they know and assume the risk by accepting lower standards of entertainer deliberately to increase revenue (given overall conditions today). The pro KJ I'm afraid for some bars, IS NOT affordable, and in paying his asking price, the bar would lose money.  I don't think the "KJ" can create his market today since entertainment is first to take the hit when overall revenue decreases.  While I agree that hacks being available makes it easier for the bars to find such hacks, I think many are shortchanging bar owners by assuming they DO NOT know the difference between quality entertainment and hack entertainment. All things equal,  I'm sure bars (assuming they could afford it) would still be paying out for we Musicians today, because we have a draw too.. Yet it's about overall business models, and what likely amounts to diminishing returns in many locations that aren't cities.  Remember Jams thread "Reinventing the Karaoke wheel" ?  Some of you in your locations likely can.. In our locations you can not. The market isn't there for KJ's.  Just dishwashers after hours on a cheap house system and if there happen to be 5 customers maybe an hour playtime until the bar shuts down at 10 PM..  I don't like the fact that nightlife is suffering in my area, but it is.
These bars WOULD NOT pay the pros wages even if there were NO hacks.. Karaoke just would've ended awhile back.  Which is what happened here in many cases too.

This is a con, but for others a pro in a free enterprise system. Higher payed engineers get early retirement and kids out've college are hired for much less, the 50 year old experienced and commensurately paid loyal employee is deemed "Over qualified".  Businesses hire HS kids for minimum wage and get immature employees, but is it the fault of the High School kids for working at places that hire them ?  Can we tell them "If you don't work"  that means the businesses will need to pay others more and as a result have a better caliber worker ?  Of course not, the kids don't care  I think some of this logic is putting the cart before the horse.  You must attack the hiring source, not the applicants.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Oh you bet Kappy Ive been in bars all over the world. I would rather have  a bar full of  fun lovin accepatable people that I could have fun with. I could care less about petty crap even karaoke but demographics and the size of a town determines that more than anything Although as a young westerner I was surprised at the people in the village somewhere in NYC. We had a ball!!!!

Each bar and eatery has its own personality and to try to apply rules to all is rediculous. Even each one changes from month to month and you adapt Next week we all might be dancing.. Or maybe just sitting there with music in the background and socializing as friends. (not with our regs now) You cant have it the same way all the time I get burned out. All I know is it's one hell of a ride...Keeps this old man going!!!

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If you ever visit I need to show you the REAL old-fashioned West... Upstate NY, and areas of Maine.  They still don't know colored televisions have been invented, and Hee-Haw is still viewed in black and white as is Lost in Space.

Ollie,  as I see it what is happening here is similar to the fallacy many musicians made "Blaming the DJ" for them being out've work.. While I agree 100% with what everybody is saying in that IT WOULD BE IDEAL if the quality market could exist indefinately, in free enterprise WE CAN'T control the qualifications of those that replace us.  Fact is THEY are being hired despite the fact they probably do suck
The DJ's initially weren't "great",  they were starting something new, and in our opinion getting payed close to nothing. Although not pro's initially, they enjoyed what they did and YES,  some even started for drinks, but as Disco and funk became more popular the opposite happened.  The amateurs starting losing their jobs to the radio DJ's and older pro's that NOW were finding it lucrative to work in bars that WERE in fact increasing pay for entertainment because demand was increasing.. So here, we saw the opposite.. BUT it was contingent on trend and times and revenue.. Should I have faulted DJ's and the change in trend, or the bars for not wishing to pay us as musicians ? or is it best that I just accepted "This is NOW what is, and I CAN NOT control it and since this is what my ex-idiot employer wants  my time is up."  I DO want to see quality entertainment but I can't control what businesses hire or don't wish to pay because they are able to get away with cutting corners for whatever reason.. This is free enterprise.. The business hires what it wants.  We can't control our competitions lack of qualifications and assuming our bosses WANT those less qualified and hire them... It doesn't seem rational to complain that they exist within the market..  Hasn't the entertainment industry ALWAYS been dog eat dog ?  Integrity has always been questionable ?  Do I like it ?  Hell no..  I left it !

I wish we could in fact have a say in applicant qualifications in our respective area of interest/work.  But we are at the wrong end of the business model to do-so. The hiring bars determine what they are willing to hire.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In my experience, kjs who could/would or do work for free or for drinks don't last in this business very long. Somewhere along the way they take the job for granted, develop an ego, mix it with drinking, and upset alot of folks who stop coming.

-eventually those places got better (compensated) Kjs because of the demand from the public. Karaoke survived and thrived when it was done properly.

However...Dr. Fred is the exception to the rule in my opinion. How many people have the resources to work for free, the desire to elevate the quality of karaoke, and the passion to make hardworking people happy and sound great?

Not many in my humbled opinion, not enough to hurt the industry as a whole.

Unless Dr. Fred is an alcoholic and gets drunk while performing his show, i believe he will thrive and wil give a better reputation of karaoke in general by way of his professionalism and genuine caring.

Besides, who else knows he is working for free or even cares about that small fact?
Would he be more respected by the naysayers if he told everyone that he donated his kj earnings to a worthy charitable foundation?

apologies- not a rant- just giving the doctor his dues....

Warmest respect to all     J.R.

About 10 years ago some gal out of Vermont or somewhere up there was going to CSU out here and tending our little bar. Town of 1000 She loved it She told me one day I would get along with her father and family and would fit right in. We were home for her.

98 % of the people in this world are nothing like they portray on tv. Right now I am boot legging off a college kids wifi connection I have talked to them they just come unglued and laugh Good kids They love to listen to my old ways. On a weekend I can walk down 8th and enter any party and drink. And I dont care if they are foreign exchange or Kansas farm kids They are here to learn and I hope improve the world. UNC is still  a teachers college although university in other ways.

And you can find this in any community including Naples or anywhere else although I still prefer the smaller rural towns..  

The Chief engineer  at KFBC TV  Cheyenne whom I become very good friends with was from upstate NY He sent me to another small tv station in co as chief engineer I was there 5 years and had a very good relationship with him. He was just as rural as I was.

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Strange thing since I started getting free drinks.

I drink less now.

Try to explain that to an economist. Price falls, and so does the consumption????

In a way when I visited the bar before, I figured buying a drink was "paying for the entertainment", the setting and the "meeting place for friends". While many of my frends drink (some a lot), I would call myself a moderate drinker (very rarely more than 3 drinks in 4-5 hours). It just felt wrong for me to spend 2-3 hours in a bar without buying something, and they didnt serve food. So I bought drinks.



But toninght after a 4 hour show doing karaoke, I counted up I drank one Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer 12oz, and one Coca Cola. That is it. I weigh near 200 pounds and one (American) beer a night is far away from makeing me a drunk.

Running the Karaoke I am busy enough to not have to find something to "fill my hands" like I did in the past before I was the KJ. Now I just drink the one beer between setup and the first singer. It gives me a chance to chat with some of the people who come to my show.

By the way I discovered long ago 17 years ago, I like how I feel after 1-2 drinks. 3 Drinks is ok, and 4 is too much. I have not been "drunk" for about 17 years now, a year after I finished my undergrad degree. In the last 15 years I have gone to 4 drinks in one night about 10 times and 5 two or three times.

Doc..."hiccup"....that that that...Pabst will make ya sick. Switch to ummm ummm ummm Miller Lite, you'll be able to pour it down. I i i i i haven't {hiccup"} been drunk for 17 years neither, but i keep trying. They keep..................ummm saying something about booze affecting yur concentration, and burning up ummm brain cells. ummmm ummm ..what a crock  {long Beltch}........bye  :drool:

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........