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Has anyone ever sang outside with a corded metal microphone and been shocked by it?

No it never happens, so go back to sleep now.  :no:  Your dream world is waiting.


See what i mean?????

Side:

Neither my input to this thread, nor any other input that I had read, challenged the need to ground ones equipment in order to protect oneself against electrocution.

The discussion I started included the questions:
  -  does a surge protector provide grounding?
  -  even if a surge protector doesn't provide a ground does it shut down the circuit quickly enough to protect man and equipment from getting "fried"

I see no evidence of anyone minimize the need for equipment to be grounded.

So, just what are you pontificating about?

I have been shocked on a microphone, outside on concrete.


SURGE PROTECTORS
When you put together a computer system, one piece of standard equipment you'll probably buy is a surge protector. Most designs serve one immediately obvious function -- they let you plug multiple components into one power outlet. With all of the different components that make up a computer system, this is definitely a useful device.
But the other function of a surge protector power strip -- protecting the electronics in your computer from surges in power -- is far more important. In this article, we'll look at surge protectors, also called surge suppressors, to find out what they do, when you need them, and how well they work. We'll also find out what levels of protection are available and see why you might not have all the protection you need, even if you do use a quality surge protector.

The main job of a surge protector system is to protect electronic devices from "surges." So if you're wondering what a surge protector does, the first question is, "What are surges?" And then, "Why do electronics need to be protected from them?"

A power surge, or transient voltage, is an increase in voltage significantly above the designated level in a flow of electricity. In normal household and office wiring in the United States, the standard voltage is 120 volts. If the voltage rises above 120 volts, there is a problem, and a surge protector helps to prevent that problem from destroying your computer.

To understand the problem, it is helpful to understand something about voltage. Voltage is a measure of a difference in electric potential energy. Electric current travels from point to point because there is a greater electric potential energy on one end of the wire than there is on the other end. This is the same sort of principle that makes water under pressure flow out of a hose -- higher pressure on one end of the hose pushes water toward an area of lower pressure. You can think of voltage as a measure of electrical pressure.

As we'll see later on, various factors can cause a brief increase in voltage.

When the increase lasts three nanoseconds (billionths of a second) or more, it's called a surge.
When it only lasts for one or two nanoseconds, it's called a spike.
If the surge or spike is high enough, it can inflict some heavy damage on a machine. The effect is very similar to applying too much water pressure to a hose. If there is too much water pressure, a hose will burst. Approximately the same thing happens when too much electrical pressure runs through a wire -- the wire "bursts." Actually, it heats up like the filament in a light bulb and burns, but it's the same idea. Even if increased voltage doesn't immediately break your machine, it may put extra strain on the components, wearing them down over time. In the next section, we'll look at what surge protectors do to prevent this from happening.
The Process of Protection

A simple MOV surge protector with line conditioning and a fuse

A standard surge protector passes the electrical current along from the outlet to a number of electrical and electronic devices plugged into the power strip. If the voltage from the outlet surges or spikes -- rises above the accepted level -- the surge protector diverts the extra electricity into the outlet's grounding wire.
In the most common type of surge protector, a component called a metal oxide varistor, or MOV, diverts the extra voltage. As you can see in the diagram below, an MOV forms a connection between the hot power line and the grounding line.

An MOV has three parts: a piece of metal oxide material in the middle, joined to the power and grounding line by two semiconductors.

These semiconductors have a variable resistance that is dependent on voltage. When voltage is below a certain level, the electrons in the semiconductors flow in such a way as to create a very high resistance. When the voltage exceeds that level, the electrons behave differently, creating a much lower resistance. When the voltage is correct, an MOV does nothing. When voltage is too high, an MOV can conduct a lot of current to eliminate the extra voltage.


As soon as the extra current is diverted into the MOV and to ground, the voltage in the hot line returns to a normal level, so the MOV's resistance shoots up again. In this way, the MOV only diverts the surge current, while allowing the standard current to continue powering whatever machines are connected to the surge protector. Metaphorically speaking, the MOV acts as a pressure-sensitive valve that only opens when there is too much pressure.

Surge Sources
Power surges occur when something boosts the electrical charge at some point in the power lines. This causes an increase in the electrical potential energy, which can increase the current flowing to your wall outlet. A number of different things can cause this to happen.

Surge Arrestors
You can also install a "whole-house" surge arrestor. You generally install these units near your electric meter, where the power lines run to your building. This protects all the circuits in your house or office from a certain range of voltage surges. Units designed for whole-house protection are generally built for outdoor installation. Better surge arrestors can handle surges up to 20,000 volts, while standard outlet surge protectors can't handle more than 6,000 volts. Some high-end arrestors can actually monitor weather conditions and will shut down the power supply to more sensitive electronics when lightning is in the area.
A whole-house surge protector will suppress power surges stemming from outside sources -- utility company problems, transformer switching, etc. -- but won't do anything to suppress the high number of power surges that originate inside your house, due to the operations of your appliances.


­ The most familiar source is probably lightning, though it's actually one of the least common causes. When lightning strikes near a power line, whether it's underground, in a building or running along poles, the electrical energy can boost electrical pressure by millions of volts. This causes an extremely large power surge that will overpower almost any surge protector. In a lightning storm, you should never rely on your surge protector to save your computer. The best protection is to unplug your computer.

A more common cause of power surges is the operation of high-power electrical devices, such as elevators, air conditioners and refrigerators. These high-powered pieces of equipment require a lot of energy to switch on and turn off components like compressors and motors. This switching creates sudden, brief demands for power, which upset the steady voltage flow in the electrical system. While these surges are nowhere near the intensity of a lightning surge, they can be severe enough to damage components, immediately or gradually, and they occur regularly in most building's electrical systems.

Other sources of power surges include faulty wiring, problems with the utility company's equipment, and downed power lines. The system of transformers and lines that brings electricity from a power generator to the outlets in our homes or offices is extraordinarily complex. There are dozens of possible points of failure, and many potential errors that can cause an uneven power flow. In today's system of electricity distribution, power surges are an unavoidable occurrence. In the next section, we'll see what this could mean to you.

Levels of Surge Protection
All surge protectors are not created equal. In fact, there is a tremendous range in both performance and price of protection systems.
At one end, you have your basic $5 surge protector power strip, which will offer very little protection.

On the other end you have systems costing hundreds or even thousands of dollars, which will protect against pretty much everything short of lightning striking nearby.

This inexpensive, quality protector features basic MOV protection and line-conditioning systems.



Most systems have limitations of some sort; picking out a protector system that suits you is a matter of balancing the cost of the system with the cost of losing data or electronic equipment. As with insurance, you find the level of coverage you're comfortable with.

To protect your equipment from surges, you need individual surge protectors for each outlet. These power strips range a great deal in quality and capacity (as we'll see in the next section). There are three basic levels of power strip surge protectors:

Basic power strip - These are basic extension cord units with five or six outlets. Generally, these models provide only basic protection.

Better power strip - For $15 to $25 you can get a power strip surge protector with better ratings and extra features.

Surge station - These large surge protectors fit under your computer or on the floor. They offer superior voltage protection and advanced line conditioning. Most models also have an input for a phone line, to protect your modem from power surges, and may feature built-in circuit breakers. You can get one of these units for as little $30, or you can spend upward of $100 for a more advanced model.

Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) - Some units combine surge protection with a continuous UPS. The basic design of a continuous UPS is to convert AC power to DC power and store it on a battery. The UPS then converts the battery's DC power back to AC power and runs it to the AC outlets for your electronics. If the power goes out, your computer will continue to run, feeding off the stored battery power. This will give you a few minutes to save your work and shut down your computer. The conversion process also gets rid of most of the line noise coming from the AC outlet. These units tend to cost $150 or more.
An ordinary UPS WILL give you a high level of protection, but you should still use a surge protector. A UPS will stop most surges from reaching your computer, but it will probably suffer severe damage itself. It's a good idea to use a basic surge protector, if just to save your UPS.
Once you've decided what level of surge protection you need, it's time to shop around for a good unit. In the next section, we'll find out what you should look for when considering different models.

Picking the Right Surge Protector
Shopping for a surge protector is tricky business because there are a lot of nearly worthless products on the market. Research into a particular model is the best way to ensure good results, but you can get a good idea of a product's performance level by looking for a few signs of quality.
First of all, look at price. As a general rule, don't expect much from any surge protector that costs less than $10. These units typically use simple, inexpensive MOVs with fairly limited capacities, and won't protect your system from bigger surges or spikes.

Of course, high price doesn't promise quality. To find out what the unit is capable of, you need to check out its Underwriters Laboratories (UL) ratings. UL is an independent, not-for-profit company that tests electric and electronic products for safety. If a protector doesn't have have a UL listing, it's probably junk; there's a good chance it doesn't have any protection components at all. If it does use MOVs, they may be of inferior quality. Cheaper MOVs can easily overheat, setting the entire surge protector on fire. This is actually a fairly common occurrence!

Many UL-listed products are also of inferior quality, of course, but you're at least guaranteed that they have some surge protection capabilities and meet a marginal safety standard. Be sure that the product is listed as a transient voltage surge suppressor. This means that it meets the criteria for UL 1449, UL's minimum performance standard for surge suppressors. There are a lot of power strips listed by UL that have no surge protection components at all. They are listed only for their performance as extension cords.





No surge protector is 100 percent effective, and even top of the line equipment may have some serious problems. Electronics experts are actually somewhat divided over the best way to deal with power surges, and different manufacturers claim other technologies are inherently faulty.

We’ll look at the different kinds of surge protector ratings in the next section.

Surge Protector Ratings
On a listed surge protector, you should find a couple of ratings. Look for:

Clamping voltage - This tells you what voltage will cause the MOVs to conduct electricity to the ground line. A lower clamping voltage indicates better protection. There are three levels of protection in the UL rating -- 330 V, 400 V and 500 V. Generally, a clamping voltage more than 400 V is too high.

Energy absorption/dissipation - This rating, given in joules, tells you how much energy the surge protector can absorb before it fails. A higher number indicates greater protection. Look for a protector that is at least rated at 200 to 400 joules. For better protection, look for a rating of 600 joules or more.

Response time - Surge protectors don't kick in immediately; there is a very slight delay as they respond to the power surge. A longer response time tells you that your computer (or other equipment) will be exposed to the surge for a greater amount of time. Look for a surge protector that responds in less than one nanosecond.
You should also look for a protector with an indicator light that tells you if the protection components are functioning. All MOVs will burn out after repeated power surges, but the protector will still function as a power strip. Without an indicator light, you have no way of knowing if your protector is still functioning properly.

A Belkin SurgeMaster II mid-range surge protector with connections for phone lines



Better surge protectors may come with some sort of guarantee of their performance. If you're shopping for more expensive units, look for a protector that comes with a guarantee on your computer. If the unit fails to protect your computer from a power surge, the company will actually replace your computer. This isn't total insurance, of course -- you'll still lose all the data on your hard drive, which could cost you plenty -- but it is a good indication of the manufacturer's confidence in their product.

If you're interested in learning more about these issues, and finding out all the ways surge protection technology can fail, check out some of the sites listed in the links section on the next page. Surprisingly, surge protectors are an extremely controversial piece of technology, and they have sparked a great deal of debate on the Web.


Protecting Your Equipment
In the last section, we saw that power surges are a regular occurrence, unavoidable with our current system of providing electricity to homes and offices. This raises an interesting question: If power surges are an inherent part of our electrical system, why didn't we need surge protectors in our homes 50 years ago?
The answer is that a lot of the components in sophisticated modern electronic devices (such as computers, microwaves, DVD players) are much smaller and more delicate than components in older machines, and are therefore more sensitive to current increases. Microprocessors, which are an integral part of all computers as well as many home appliances, are particularly sensitive to surges. They only function properly when they receive stable current at the right voltage.

So whether or not you should get a surge protector depends on what sort of device you're hooking up to the power supply.

There's no reason to hook up a light bulb to a surge protector because the worst that is likely to happen due to a power surge is that your light bulb will burn out.
You should definitely use a surge protector with your computer. It is filled with voltage-sensitive components that a power surge could damage very easily. At the least, this damage will shorten the life of your computer, and it could very easily wipe out all of your saved data or destroy your system. Computers are very expensive items, and the data they hold is often irreplaceable, so it's only good economic sense to invest in a quality surge protector.
It's a good idea to use surge protectors for other high-end electronic equipment, such as entertainment center components. A surge protector will generally extend the life of these devices, and there's always a chance that a big power surge will causes severe damage.


One problem with surge protectors is that the MOVs can burn out with one good surge. This is why it's good to get a protector with an indicator light that tells you whether or not it's functioning properly.

Even if you connect surge protectors to all of your outlets, your equipment might be exposed to damaging surges from other sources. Telephone and cable lines can also conduct high voltage -- for full protection, you should also guard against surges from your telephone or cable lines. Any lines carrying signals into your home can also carry a power surge, due to lightning or a number of other factors. If your computer is connected to the phone lines via a modem, you should get a surge protector that has a phone-line input jack. If you have a coaxial cable line hooked up to expensive equipment, consider a cable surge protector. Surges on these lines can do just as much damage as surges over power lines.


Show me anywhere, an atricle that recommends lifting the grounds on anything for any reason.

A laptop is powered by a wall type or separate power supply which is commonly 12 volts and does not have the potential to kill. There is an old saying voltage does not and kill current does. A high current from one extreme of the body to another stops the heart beat. A high current also burns the body at the point where it exits. A high current totally paralyzes the body.

To date I have experienced the shock from. 30kv from radar. unknown voltage from magnetos and other coils that provide the spark for internal combustion engines 25 & 30 kv from tv crt voltage numerous times from household 110 & 220. The one that had me paralyzed and nearly got me was 3 kv from a 1200 watt microwave oven. It had me paralyzed. The only thing that saved me was I was grounded through a plastic button and paralysis collapsed my body away. The voltage I fear most is 440 3 phase in damp irrigation wells.

I have stated numerous times in these forums. A lifted ground whether on a tv transmitter tower or consumer appliance supplies a voltage difference or potential and with a power surge totally destroys and fries to a black crisp.

When replacing sensitive chips in modern day electronics one must wear a grounded wrist strap. The smallest of static charge will totally destroy a chip. So by all means lift the ground on your laptop.

BTW Anything that has a transformer to reduce voltage for power does not require a positive ground.  The expert has spoken I have 2 degrees in electronic engineering.

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When you say lift the ground, are you talking about a 2 prong plug, meaning ground and hot or a 3 prong plug with ground, hot, ground?

Laptops are 2 prong.

Mixers, amplifiers, cordless microphones, extension cords, plug strips, surge protectors all have 3 prongs.   Added safety ground.  Underwriters Lab. requires all of these to be manufactured with 3 prong plugs. WHY?

If your laptop does indeed (never seen one) have a 2 prong power plug then an adapter which lifts the ground would have no difference. However any piece of gear in a rack which has a positive ground and proper power strip has added protection. If you apply video or audio to a grounded appliance it is grounded to a positive or green ground. It is also subject to ground loop conditions. Source not grounded Bingo!!

Grounds can be the most complicated in analysis.A tv transmitter tower is grounded by a 2" copper flat strap buried around the building. When I say positive ground it is earth ground and is a copper rod in the ground.

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Karyoker, cant remember now, but my worst shock was whilst repairing a scope on the DC side. It was HT. Why was that. Something makes me think AC is worse.
Sorry memory going to Altimers.

No, DC is much worse. If you get enough DC current and your hand grabs a source, you are literally incapable of opening your hand to let go! With AC you can remove yourself from the source, because it isn't constant current to spasm your muscles.

I was on a submarine for 5 years, and there we had lots of high-current DC. There you learn that if someone gets shocked by DC, you get a non-conducting thing like a broom and *knock* them off the source.

You will not typically find DC greater than 28v for the simple reason that 30v of DC can kill you. Your body's resistance can get down to 10Kohms at times, and 30v / 10Kohms = 100 milliamps, which is enough current to kill you when it passes through your heart. 28v is a  step below that 30v level.

Sometimes I feel like I need an Electrical Engineering degree just to understand some of these posts! Seriously it is nice to have such educated people to give advice and opinions on these diverse topics and I thank you all who take time to answer these questions. I have been greatly helped on this forum.

When you all want to know how to make plastic just let me know!

A standard surge protector passes the electrical current along from the outlet to a number of electrical and electronic devices plugged into the power strip. If the voltage from the outlet surges or spikes -- rises above the accepted level -- the surge protector diverts the extra electricity into the outlet's grounding wire.

What happens to the surge of electricity if the ground is lifted???   Where will it go?   And how?


AS you have read from above, it doesn't take much to fry electronic equipment or to severely damage it.   Think about a wire used in a house circiut.  Usually 14-12 gauge.   How much surge could that wire take before it melts?

In the micro world of the guts of a laptop and the tiny little chips.  How thick is the biggest wire inside the chip?    You almost need a microscope to see them.    So how much of a spike or surge do you think it will take to melt one or all of those micro wires, instantly?

Perhaps you should stand back and let others dispense what knowledge they have. Melting of 12-gauge wires is not of concern here; if that happens, the person is dead and the house is on fire.

Long before I began to ask the questions I posed here, I read ALL of those online entries that Side provided.  Off course, none of those articles specifically respond to my question about grounding, or I would never have raised the question(s) I did herein.

Since my last post I've spoken with a few people who seem to know what they are talking about.  The prevailing opinion is that so long as the surge protector doesn't fail, it will protect both man and equipment, even with the ground plug disabled.
(consider, also how many devices you have that don't have ground plugs)

My associate, who caused me to post the question in the first place, uses a 2-prong  adapter on her PC,   She then plugs her PC in at the end of a series of surge protectors.  It appears that her position, that all of the surge protectors will not faill at the same time is a valid opinion.  It also appears that her suggestion is correct that using the adapter does not add a significant risk to her PC

PS  --- MY LAPTOP HAS A THREE-PRONG PLUG!

Did you read the part about surge protectors that says they begin to fail with every surge they take.  And how would you know everytime a surge has hit the surge protector.  It only has to be a little bit over for NANO seconds.  Not weeks and months.

If your surge protector is old and you have played through thunderstorms much, (i know i have) you could have been hit many times and never know it because the surge protector took it and kept going.  But it can't keep doing it.  Sooner or later there will be the one that puts it over the edge.  And bye bye laptop.  Could be tonight.  You don't really know, do you?

The point about 12 gauge wire is, it takes a whole lot more surge to melt 12 gauge than it does the mirco wiring in a laptop.

Bars are notorious for having bad wiring and over loaded circuit and surge problems from the cooler compressors kicking on.

I'm not taking any chances with my equipment.  :no:   I recommend you don't.

I think sidewinder already took a hit.  :shock:  His brain is fried He thinks he's a KJ and has all these venues  




                               Donny "B"  

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