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Either way I don't think there is a problem with having or using rank. I think it is in whether it is a fluff rank, or a serious rank that peoples opinions vary. I still say it is useful for quantitatively describing a performance. Given however that is currently completely subjective. No one has defined what the scale is in reference too - example are you a 9 or 10 compared to all other bad singers, or a 9 or 10 based on others we all might experience at karaoke, or are you a 9 or 10 based on the whole universe of what everyone has ever heard sung?

I suppose I like rank because it is simple - perhaps a lazy way of getting a quick view of how well an audience member might have thought of the performance. I am surprised by the number of people that only consider rank some type of competitive, contest symbol. While that may be one dimension or use - in my opinion it is hardly all that it represents or can be useful for. It seems people just don't like to see someone give a person a 10 or another person receive a 7 but similarly to a critique it is just a measure and observance of performance.

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The Truth Is Out There

It gets Iffy because Critique will always mean "Careful analysis", which means there are parameters, and always considerations.  Whereby arguably a college critique might be considered "constructive criticism" however in such a setting there's often a difference in rank.  Prof critiquing student is not the same as peer critiquing peer. Even assuming a person gives permission to "let me have it", caution should be taken.. We are ALL equal, and here to have fun.. This is not an academic setting, however this doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to apply basic principles of the critiquing process carefully none-the-less to help each other improve when mutually understood.
What critique doesn't mean is wanton disrespectful fault finding which is also a definition of criticism..  In the critique etiquette and tact are compulsory, however it'd be expected that most of us that have graduated Jr HS have the ability to understand this level of psychology.  Pretty much, "Do unto others" is a good rule when critiquing. If a person is a total masochist however there may be problems for all involved

Among mature adults, it's a little more than common sense, because it involves careful thought on both ends,  Can I REALLY handle a critique that might catch me off guard ?   and  Can I deliver a critique and keep this a positive experience without interjecting any one-upsmanship, or any aspect of condescension.

Quite simply in a two way street allowances are made.  You ask me to critique you in order to help you to improve.  I understand this and do-so with a positive means of helping in mind..  If you don't wish for critique and I deliver one,  it's impinging myself and negative.  It MUST be understood that the person requesting the critique is willing to accept constructive feedback and wanting the opinions of others.  Similarly the person delivering the critique has a responsibility to wish to help in a mature positive manner.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Similar to opinions on the whole of SS I am a bit divided as to what my opinions with regard to the purpose of SS and use of critique C is...

I can see that it can and is a fun site. Does this mean it is completely non serious?

There are those on SS that only want a free form non-serious SS.

There are those on SS that wish it was a more serious forum.

I can see the merits of both, and I can also see because of this where all the problems and misconceptions / misgivings come from.

So, the question is can it be both of these things to both sets of these people and without a lot of conflict?

I'd hazard to suggest that no it probably can't without some hard definitions and instructions for those that use it along with proper moderation. Probably some mechanical assistance is required as well. This could mean having a separate SS for 'more serious' singers and those for more karaoke just for fun types. I think it could possibly be done in the same area if Phil (Admin) came forth with a statement of purpose and clearly delineates what is allowed and expected and what is not. I already mentioned one way I think it could be done mechanically in a previous post. That is for JFF (J) to be the area for those not serious that just want comments. Perhaps rank could be provided to them as well. C then could only (and this would be insisted by Admin and Moderators) be used for those really asking for a Critique (and that doesn't mean criticism). People would be reprimanded for negative attacks and flames. Rank would remain and be used appropriately and better defined as to what the range is and what it is in reference of. People would have to click on disclaimer pages too whenever they commented as a critique or subbed for critique so that they are aware and agree to any type of feedback that is proper and reasonable (no flames, attacks, etc).

I think either of these two methods would solve the problem and help SS/KS as a showcase and a forum.

In my opinion it has to be a solution like that, and as long as Admin / Mods are hands off it will never happen and could never work. So if any of you are serious I recommend you request changes for improvement and communication be approved and implemented. That's my take. Other than that this issue will just drone on and on with no point.

I shamelessly  :oops:  do somewhat like the Singers Showcase crack cocaine 10's ( and yes currently have a lot of them). But I might prefer a serious 7 or even lower in a venue that was real and hard to earn, and everyone went by those same hard standards. As I mentioned previously fluff and 10's are nice but still in my opinion meaningless. Likely my interest in this site will soon wane if what I am doing has absolutely no real meaning that I can ascribe to it.

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The Truth Is Out There

We aren't going to change showcase by doing our thing in the showcase.  Yet the showcase can't keep us from doing our thing here !   Here the mods can moderate, MOST in showcase are quite happy with showcase is it currently exists.  The majority I am confident want showcase as it is..

Which is why I try sporadically to start critique threads here.  I see no other way.. Mods can do their thing here, those that DO wish for the process to work always have the option of doing it here where we agree to try to make it work !

To attempt to train a "non critique friendly" venue to accept critique is counterproductive to all involved.  It's fighting.  If critique works in here, and we are going to try very hard to get it to work for US... and people see it's a positive process, that's our best shot at introducing the process to the showcase.  Not the other way around. It has to happen naturally in a site such as the showcase. Otherwise it's throwing mud in "happyville".

Either way, I think it's fine that singers showcase works as it does because for the vast majority it works well, and folks keep subbing and subbing A LOT, so the fact that most like it,  assuming I didn't find it fine, that'd be MY problem anyway
Why not just take actual critique to a place where we can do our thing unimpeded without upsetting a place that doesn't want critique ?  We still CAN critique.  So why does there need to be a big deal ?  It's a pretty easy solution that I feel can work !
We critique here in a thread in Singers forum... "Singers" seems like  reasonable heading for those that like to sing and wish to improve..Singers Showcase however many maintain is "just karaoke" so leave it alone.  At least that's how I understand it !  They don't wish to be bothered with intensity.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I suppose that is true, but I think Showcase could be modified to work for both groups if there was enough interest and people willing to make changes - perhaps coding / structure changes in Showcase. It's ok to do in depth critiques here in the forums but it might be nice to have shorter critiques and assessments in Showcase. I'd prefer that Showcase had that functionality. Because it doesn't is really beginning to bug me and make me consider just quitting it. It's fun to share, but on the simplest level it's nice to know and receive real feedback about what you did. Otherwise why bother sharing in the first place? If people are only going to just leave a nice fluffy comment what is the point? I could put crap out there, or I could put a masterpiece out and might not be able to tell a lot of difference by the comments or rank. At the same time I wouldn't expect someone to come in currently and give me a hard (@$%&#!) rank and critique when others aren't receiving the same - in that case it would look more like an attack. That's why it is essential that if it is done it be equitable for all.

Given all that I doubt Admin or anyone will make any changes...so I digress.

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The Truth Is Out There

Stephen I just read the rest of what you typed, and yeah I agree to a large degree. Sure do the critiques here for now. I'm not sure though that there will be enough interest and commitment by many to do all the critiquing. Typically I don't necessarily want a lot of technical breakdown. I may just want an idea of if I pulled it off or not, and how well. Did it sound right for me or was it really kind of a weak waste of effort for me. Usually I hear  technical flaws. I don't always remove them before subbing because I don't always take the time and effort to make it 'perfect'. However there are times when I may not really know how well I did, or exactly where / how I screwed something up. In that case it might be good for some input and suggestions.

Still I would like to see a solution in Showcase as well though, but you are correct in surmising that this is currently a simpler solution.

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The Truth Is Out There

I won't speak for administration, but as I see it WHY (assuming I were administration) and I wished for this site to grow what's there to fix ?  Karaoke Scene is VERY successful without a few of us that wish for critique... Most have stated "We like this site as it is" if you folks have a problem we don't see it, in essence "You folks deal with it"  What percentage are really having probs regarding "Critique" working or not working in Singers Showcase ?  Very few.  It's those that REALLY want to see critiquing work and take singing more seriously than "just karaoke" that are affected...  If MOST like fluff, and consider critique, and comments to mean "light and friendly" and it should ALL be JFF.. and that's what membership likes for the most part... WHY would administration wish to go thru reprogramming a site when the site works fine  and membership reflects this.  I can say SS is NOT critique friendly, but HOW can anyone say "Singers Showcase" doesn't work for the vast majority ?   The proof is in the daily numbers submitting, it's a HUGE successful site..

So we need to accomodate us.  and it's not hard

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

That's up to those that claim they wish for critique to work to decide   There might not be enough interest.  I hope there is, but that's just me. So systematically it makes NO sense to go talking about how to change the showcase when we don't even know if there's enough interest to make it worthwhile.. Let's start here, and hope it works, and assuming those complaining about the critique process not working showing genuine effort to get it to work might start some contagion that spreads because it'll be positive interaction and harmless, but very helpful and honest.  I can only speak for myself.. I know I'm not alone in wanting this but it's not up to me to carry something not enough have an interest in.  So I figured, I'm not going to talk about it, I'm going to try to be part of getting it to work assuming it can.. I don't like complaining about it..  I'd rather be part of doing it !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is possibly mostly true. I'm not completely sure. There could be a lot of people that would want and appreciate an improved format and done properly that could make it even more successful. However I think that's why it would have to accommodate and satisfy both groups. If a Rank is add to J/JFF subs and C and it's Rank are restricted for only those expecting a more stringent, constructive review then I think it is problem solved. That's not a lot of change. Technically it could possibly work that way now if Admin came online and posted guidelines stating that JFF'ers should not use C if they want a JFF review and comment. I think having a disclaimer page that must be accepted before someone comments or subs C would improve compliance, and lower problems. It might be an even better idea to require people to request and be approved into a C group (similar to current approval in Singers Forum) before they can sub or review a C song.

That's how I see it working functionally, but like you say there may not be enough interest by users or staff to make these changes. We'd have to create a poll or something and comments to Admin  to find out.

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The Truth Is Out There

Bill I like your ideas! But i think the rank is BS...just do away with it completely...and I DO think that thre definitions of "Just for fun" and "critique please" should be much more clearly defined.

And Kappy... you have some valid points about the site and the numbers of subs each day but may I point something out? I have spent alot of time on SS listening to songs and I have noticed a trend where many wonderful singers join the site- then drop off the face of the earth. I can't help but feel that if they were getting what they expected to from SS- they would still be around.

Since fluff is rampant and you know they got tons of hot air blown up their skirts...then one can only draw the conclusion that they weren't looking for "compliments" or they would still be here. That leads me to believe that they honestly wanted a critique and when they didn't get it - they moved on.

I have also heard form many that are involved on the forum part of the site but have nothing to do with SS and they all say flat out that they stopped using it because of the lack of honesty. So perhaps all the "deal with it people" who "seem" to b the norm are in actuality merely the persistent ones. It's something to think about. There have been many good points brought up in this threadbut from what I'm getting:

Ranks serve no purpose because of the propensity to abuse them
and there needs to be a definite distinction between "JFF" and "C"

That doesn't seem to be such a difficult progamming issue for the gurus to address.  :oh yeah:

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I agree with all of you regarding Rank being BS.. BUT,  does it attract people to the site ?   Don't MOST like having the feature, realistic or not (yes I know what the correct answer is)    It seems like MOST want Rank and Critique to stay is it is ..   I would bet points that the vast majority like Singers Showcase as it currently exists.  It's been discussed since the day I joined here in April of 1947

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

hey guys...just poking my nose in for the briefest of times...home from setting up and sound checking and have to go try and turn a sows ear into something silky so as I dont scare folks shortly.

Paula in answer to your "why are they not around" thang...I think there are many and varied reasons why.
it depends largely on the personality behind the voice. Some come here expecting folks to fall all over them. That does indeed happen, but only if there is a give and take scenario.

Those that never bother to answer comments left them or comment on others tend to find that they get less and less comments.
I for one wont comment on someone who is so pig-ignorant as to never acknowledge the time others have taken to listen. This has little to do with "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" and everything to do with common courtesy and social interaction.

The social interaction is what keeps me here. I have said it before and i will say it again, what people think of my music here means little in the greater scheme of thing cos in real life I still get booked and I still get paid regardless.
For me it is the social interaction with like-minded people that I have something in common with. Remove that and I am gone And of latter weeks the enjoyment of receiving positive critique that I can learn from (once I can translate Kappy's long words n stuff...thank you google)

But for others its the big fish in small pond thang...whatever the individual's reason, I do not think that admin or the way SS is set up has anything to do with it. Its what an individual likes to give and take from the experience.

Personally I feel honour bound to comment on folks who comment on me...I look upon that as good manners. If I havent got the time to comment then I dont sub. There is one exception to this and that is if the individual continually subs "inspirational" I will not listen because its not my belief and I dont want other beliefs rammed down my gullet, I had enough of that at school. I have gone so far as to politely ask someone recently to desist commenting on my songs as I couldnt return the favour...I know that person was a tad miffed but I refuse to listen to songs whos lyrics have been rewritten to praise a god I have no belief in.

ok off my soap box now

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

umm heck if any one feels the need to hammer some one over subs, you can hammer me, one cause i can take it, two because I dont care, well i mean i hope you like my subs , but really nothing said about me or to me on any internet site gets under my skin. i enjoy all the subs i hear cause i know the heart that even the less talented singer put in to thier songs, and thats what warms my heart, just the fact that someone took time to share part of themselves thru music turns my soul and heart on so keep them comming gang i love all of you

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My heart is steadfast,Oh Lord;
I will sing and make music with all my soul. Psalms 108:1

Paula,  Like many others here I have MANY years of internet experience. People come and go in ALL sites, it must be that way, real life sometimes upstages our playtime.. There are numerous reasons; People may be between relationships lonely hence might post more, people during school breaks might post more, people move, change location and their setup just doesn't get a chance to get set back up because other interests prevail, Hard drives crash, and computers become a headache so they don't rebuild the harddrive to accomodate Karaoke, and for some the novelty dies out (it takes time to record and sub). But real life must not be overlooked, Fewer leave this site than just America Online chatrooms and IRC areas, Paltalk areas, Google rooms where all it takes is to click and yack, VERY few drop out for good relative to ANY site of comparable membership that don't return.  I know of NO sites where over 80% of such avid participants taking time to compose and mix music they are a part of regularly while submitting at the rate many do within Singer Showcase do-so steadily over a three year period without having to fadeout for awhile, Who has such time steadily and indefineately ? What enables some to have this amount of time anyway to create and submit ?  Some are stay-at-home moms but kids grow and have other activities more involved, some are between jobs, some just get tired of the same place and move on.. As Vicki said some leave in a huff, but almost always they end up returning perhaps a year or more down the road, some refuse to leave and their IP must be blocked ,..Some are still hear (just different SN's). Some have several SN's and lose one..Life throws other stuff at all in time though. People aren't leaving disproportionally to anywhere else due to altercations.. Things are always more exciting at the beginning, not all will repeat the same stuff day after day, month after month.. Recording in the showcase can be exciting for MOST for how long realistically without them needing a cooling period for abit ?  Those that are having fun, aren't going to get into altercations that will likely drive them out.. Usually it's when it's time for a change that that stuff happens anyway.. That's just a symptom of stagnation wrestlessless and it's time to move on or chill out..  I'd be inclined to think that when the novelty of something wears thin people fizzle out, given time involved and more of the same, and than asking :Why am I doing this day after day after day: ?   What am I getting out've it... THAT'S why many leave.. I'd get really bored, and I haven't started yet..  I prefer yacking, than singing or playing for an invisible audience..If I thought I could sing, and thought I was even an 8 rank singer,  I'd not be here anyway,  I'd be at bars interacting with live people trying to nurture real and local relationships musically.. What I'm getting at is sure I have friends in here, but subbing takes time, and if people have certain expectations of  making it big by subbing online, they'll be gone in no time.. Nobody wins. This has nothing to do with the Rank feature, although I personally think it's ludicrous and babyish, MOST like it for whatever reason.. It's not my call... I don't believe that ANY leave because of Rank or Critique in the showcase directly, but I believe since this site is extremely visible MANY more join because rank is visible.. In fact, We can turn this around, with fluff, light and friendly stuff, and ALL being a 9 or 10... More will be content in such a friendly environment, theres less that's abrasive to alienate members

I think VERY few have left because of Rank and Critique relative to the draw those features actually have to attract newbies into the "fun singing playground", and what keeps others staying ENJOYING being 9's (hey, again, if that's what they wish to believe who cares what I say).. Realistically, the only people that are frustrated with Singers Showcase are the realists, but nothing about the current system should drive a realist away, because from the day they joined the showcase (most of us were spectators prior to joining) we KNEW fluff was rampant.. We joined a site know many 9's weren't even average ability singers.. We joined a site knowing rank existed... Why would rank NOW drive us away ? I HONESTLY don't think a high enough percentage DOES want actual critiquing "It's just Karaoke" for MOST, they have a different concept of singing than many of  us do that take our art more seriously, and to a higher level, They don't want our serious stuff...I personally would like to see more room in here for MUSICIANS, but that's not the norm.. and it CAN work elsewhere in the site (critique that is), but what's happened in the past ?  This is my third or fourth attempt at Critique setting... In the past I was the only one delivering the Critiques.. So while some claim "Critique should be allowed" and I certainly agree, if there aren't enough people wishing to give critiques to keep a site such as the currently once again formed Critique thread going (and it's such an easy site to keep up, and such a doable option that requires little effort) HOW many REALLY are leaving because of Fluff as opposed to honesty or critique being the straw driving them off ? Where on the internet is Rank realistic ?  It's not ANYWHERE visible to the general public, You knew this when you joined, as did I.. But now we wish to change it when MOST love it ? or have the option of not posting for rank assuming the don't like it ?... Remember, KS is a business.. It wishes to attract new members, and if ALL feel welcome, and ALL get fluff, and ALL can be 9 or 10 just be playing the game right, Rank isn't going to be the catalyst for alienating members unless members along the way get creative ideas such as actually critiquing in a non-critique friendly environment, they already know it's not welcome in the showcase.. Why start ?   Others become TOO brutally competitive, meaning they actually thought they were going to join this site, all jaws would drop, and they'd consistently receive  :worship:  :worship:  and be gods.. Well we get them in ALL sites, they have the life-span of a flea in such places... especially since throughout the internet the standard "pack behaviour applies", so alienate a friend of a friend and stuff happens.  THis happens ALL over the internet, it's not unique to this setting.  I know for me after subbing a few times, novelty would die down. Additionally disparity between subbing and bboards is created because bboards are more of the working KJ's and active folks into different areas in real life such as working KJ's, and entertainers... folks doing Karaoke that get together, come home and want to talk shop talk. Singer's SHowcase is an interactive singing site, and doesn't NEED the bboards assuming a person wishes just to record and sing and share in that limited area.. BBoards have their own pattern and heirarchy that some in the showcase don't like... BUT, UNLESS the bboards offer them something of interest which I think the Critique thread does, they don't need the boards, except for certain times.. Sure there's frustration for some, but more ignore our frustration and chug-along having a blast because for them it's a friendly place..  In ALL sites people come and go, yet subbing Karaoke takes time.. I'm really amazed AS MANY STAY.. Relative to others sites on the internet, SS has been going VERY strong for a long time.  How many other sites are there that have the percentage of high volume posting individuals that have remained steadily ?  The Rank is BS, sure  But MOST love that BS, many eat it up, and it's probably sustaining more than it's alienating..  It's not up to me to tell a 9 rank singer in the showcase that they really should practice before making a total a$$ out've themselves, or at least realize where they stand because in reality they are a "3" rank singer.  The response would be "Hey Kappy, shove off, I'm having fun, and I don't need your opinion because It's just Karaoke, and anyone who subs deserves a high rank for joining in", How can I refute that if they want it this way ? They tell me, "If you want a musicians site, go find one, but you've joined a Karaoke site..  This works for us". if this weren't so MORE would be requesting changes.. People lock antlers, get offended, but they return

So,  My thoughts are we form our own area within Karaoke Scene where musicians can interact, because IMHO NOTHING about Karaoke should preclude we musicians.. I use Karaoke as a practice tool..I love it.. but as a musician I don't consider singing just for fun,  I want to be good at it before I showcase it... So I'm not the norm I suppose.. I personally don't know of a way to balance visibility and marketing to entice new members to join a site that wishes for payed memberships or needs them... Keeping as many happy as possible (never all),  and has employees that have the time to tweak little things such as glitches,  but software changes are a pain in the butt for administration here. they aren't simple..and when this came up over two years ago *not this past year with all the polls* but over two years ago, many in the showcase came in, and their feelings were ,  "What's wrong with the way things are? We like the features as-is".

Hence, we can be real and honest in here.  Let them have their fun, it's the easiest solution

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

So while it might sound as if there's some hypocracy in my above statements there's not.. I'm a musician, and for somebody like me such dishonesty is insulting.. I would never subject myself to the showcase but to me Karaoke is only a means to become a decent singer hopefully.  Singing isn't to participate in Karaoke as a fun game.. Musicianship is my focus, I won't compromise that (even if I do like M Crawfords singing )..  But I'm not here for "Karaoke", I'm here for the singers.. and musicians that are mature, and not 16 year old guitar gods that are drunk..  I prefer REAL, honest interaction because to me singers aren't just about having fun assuming they really DO wish to improve.. They should have that right because Singing isn't just karaoke.. JMO... But since for MANY here it is.. They must have that right.

While the KJ's take what they do seriously, and wish dignity to remain in it.  Singers also are professionals much of the time, also take what they do seriously, wish for dignity and integrity to remain in their art.. I know this,  I backed them a good portion of my life.. That's why I'm here..  I take music seriously.. Singers have NO less of a right to a professional atmosphere as do the KJ's here IMHO..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One other thing, and I'll stop rambling for 15 minutes.

We discuss how people from the Showcase don't seem to often participate here in the bboards, and vice versa, but the singers forum gets relatively little posting interest compared to the Off topic forum and Karaoke Forum, and it's understandable why such forums might not be of interest to Singers in the Showcase.  Do we really discuss matters of interest that include them ?  Do we discuss music and singing ?   With a few exceptions as of late, Singers Forum has pretty much been ignored by many.. Very little activity, but the group that chats in the bboards isn't unified with many that get along and exchange comments in the Showcase, We are pretty much two separate groups, so the question is why ? Is it that some in the Showcase don't wish to chat at all on the bboards ? Or is it that they really don't see any topics that interest them, or areas where they feel they can chime in and comfortably add stuff ?..  I think if we wish to unite those in Singers Showcase, with those in the bboards we need to share a common link we all have,  the bboards are pretty much KJ and tech oriented, often when something comes up about the showcase it's escalated to war-proportioned heights also we kid around, but we too have a group that gets along too, have we extended ourselves and connected with those in the showcase ?  Maybe maybe not ?..  Discussing interesting and friendly subject matter or singing related content in a positive manner, perhaps critiquing successfully as opposed to complaining about the process can unite both groups..  We can discuss aspects of singers and singing more,..  But I think those of us that post have a responsibility to make the bboards perhaps more of a warmer (and what *they* might consider less of a cliquish atmosphere)and more inviting for those that really come here for singing and singing interaction because realistically a few DID state their concern regarding feelings that the bboards weren't a friendly place (in the past). Recently of course they HAVE warmed up considerably over the past year.. But the Singers Forum hasn't been the most active forum by any means..  Singers forum is watched by some in the showcase,  yet interestingly enough until recently Singers forum has been of relatively little interest to those that chat in the bboards.  

Just a thought.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Ok here are some more ideas if people want to critique and be critiqued. Here in the Singers Forum (Stickied) we should start threads:

"Sub Your Song For Critiquing" - where anyone that wants a critique on an SS song post their request. Along with the request they should include any information necessary such as intent (original, cover), whether they did any instrumentation, what they want to know, etc.

(Alternatively or Additionally - we can have a similar thread for those posting in SS that want a more serious (no fluff) critique done in Singers Showcase. NOTE: I've considered posting such on my SS profile page and in my songs, but so far I haven't made the move - perhaps soon.)

"Your Song Reviewer Is...": This thread would be where everyone that decides to critique others subs adds some info about themselves, and their music experience, training, etc.

"Results of Songs Reviewed": Would be a location thread for those critiquing to post their critiques of songs requested in the "Sub Your Song For Critiquing" thread. Alternatively I suppose individual threads could be created for each song reviewed, or PM's sent.

Other ideas? Did I leave anything out?

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The Truth Is Out There

What I've done Bill.  Is those that request critiques,  I leave in the comment box.  I left your critique in the Critique thread within Singers Forum.  It's more conducive to dialogue and interactive discussion which is helpful.


I feel fewer will be exposed to a process that has not gone over well, if we bring critique here.  Assuming those want it, they'll make the trip.. Critique stands a chance of working here.. It's tougher within the showcase.  So while people can do as they chose,  I'm going to critique in the thread I formed for that purpose. So we can all discuss things, and the person singing can input their own feelings, discuss their song, and the whole process can be more interactive

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

What do you mean the 'comment box'? Where is that?

I agree with what you are saying I just thought it makes sense to break it out into separate threads based on function so all and everything isn't in just one very very very long thread. It would also be easier to find which songs people want a critique, information about who's critiquing them, and finding their actual critiques.

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The Truth Is Out There

If you sub for critique within the showcase,  I might leave a PM, or comment "IF you wish for a critique PM me".  At that point the critique is either private or in here.. if a person wishes for it in the showcase that is fine assuming they say so.. It's a mutual process.  I think you'll find some will prefer the honest critique here, others don't care because I've found those that don't truly wish for critique don't even respond to the offer for one.. Those that've given permission in REAL are usually "safe" to critique, meaning they won't coil and strike..  But, What I like about the critique thread concept (discussion on working a critique thread might be best in threads such as this one) is that it enables a discussion or dialogue regarding the individuals submitted material, because in such a setting critiquing should allow for questions, responses, and explanations at times, the singer should let the critiquing individual know WHAT it is they are trying to do with the song, what they wish for the singer to listen for specifically since MOST singers have a pretty decent idea of what it is they need some work in, hence this is why the wish for the critique.. The Critique is for the SINGER who aspires to SING better.  It's adding musicianship to Karaoke singing and ALL singing.. So some would rather have it explained to them WHERE in the song they were slightly off,  what aspects of phrasing and dynamics can stand to be tweaked,  It's more of an artistic process... and SHOULD be discussed and questioned assuming the person REALLY wishes for help..  The Singers Showcase setting makes it tougher for some to do this.. I can leave you a critique, but if you have a question I can't respond in that setting..  It's not truly a Critique friendly setting... Arguably this is one reason Critique doesn't belong in such a setting.. It's not layed out in a conducive manner unless the Critiquing individual REALLY is concise, trained, and the receiving party takes what they are saying as gospel..  Otherwise the process should allow for tweaking and discussion on BOTH parts.. IE... I made a mistake recently, and it was explained to me why my critique doesn't apply..  You too learned something as the person critiquing,, It's a growth process for ALL.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".