Karaoke Forums

That's great Ollie. But YOU are tired of INSULTS?
C'MON! YOU are the one that insults everyone by calling them clowns and claiming you know everything and everybody is wrong. THAT is the problem- you bring it on yourself, so stop your whining.
TO GET RESPECT YOU GIVE IT...life 101 dude.  :no:  :no:  :no:

25 dollars an hour translates into $125 a night for a 5 hour show which isn't too bad for a steady gig in my area.  Those who work for 50 - 75 dollars a night are the problem.

I'd like to see some of you who get 300 a night for a karaoke show try to get that here in my area.

I didnt mean to offend,............... If the bar is providing the equipt the music, and the setup is a permanent in house system, then the talent for running it here is $25.00 and hour.  The only other cases are as I said. But that is here.

As long as there are individuals that will work for Lesser pay, that is what the market will bear.

We have Karaoke bars her that have the same 10 people there singing the same 5 songs every night. No need for a talented Kj there. Get on of the drunks to play, and give him a beer.

But I have seen a talented Kj here with a decent system take a bar with no clientelle, and Turn it into a packed out karaoke Bar 75 plus singers, and 30-40 non-singers that liked the show, everynight he played there. Week after week. Bar Owners Knew He made them money, and he was Justly compensated.

That same Kj Moved to Dallas about a year ago, and the bar is once again an empty bar.... 10 people Max 7 days a week.

Talent has its rewared if You arent in a Poisoned market.

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

How much do people spend to go ski, scuba dive, skydive, own a boat, horse, sportscar etc. A lot of other hobbies are even more expensive than being a KJ. Most of those hobbies involve no hope of any monitary compensation.

Many hobbies can involve carying around a lot of heavy gear, and spending $10,000 or more eventually.

Lets compare it to some of the other people who go to bars to drink for a "hobby". Say they spend $25 a night 4 nights a week. (and that is by no means excessive for people hanging around bars). That adds up to $5k a year, and after 2 years that much would pay for my karaoke gear. They would have little to show for it after 2 years time, at least I will have my karaoke rig.

Hobbies are that way, different people would pay different ammounts for their hobby and think other hobbies are crazy. I would NEVER spend $10k on a horse, but hey a lot of people do. Are they wrong or crazy? No just have different personal taste.

For you to be a KJ they have to pay you. For me they don't (within reason 1 or 2 shows a week). Obviously you don't like being a KJ as much as I do, or you don't have the financial freedom to make the choice I have made. Different people have different taste and ideas about what is fun. Some would not even set foot in a bar for $1000 because of their beliefs, much less be a KJ.  

And no I am not wealthy, I just live well within my means. Except for my car and house the karaoke purchases are the most expensive thing I have ever bought in my life (when you add the whole rig together). My income does not even place me in the top 25% of the country.

It is a hobby.
The free drinks are barely 1% of the motivation.
I dont even drink much, never more than 3 drinks a night, often only 2. Usually light cheap US beers (PBR). Most drunks would consider PBR not even drinking.

No I am not a businessman (at least for the karaoke). I am not hurting myself. I enjoy doing it.

Now there are a lot of other KJs like me (most are less vocal about it though) that do it as a hobby.

The fact that I do my karoaoke as a hobby may mean that I do it because I CARE and it is not just a JOB. I think I put on a good show and I am building a strong group of regulars. A lot of PAID karaoke KJs do a horrible job because they don't care and all they want is their paycheck.

I dont see a lot of scuba people loaning out euip, and asking prople to go with them, or boaters going out to the beach pulling any skiers that want to ski. Apples and oranges.

I love the Daytime Job I do, which By The way isnt Karaoke. But I am not going to do it for fun. Someone else is making a profit, I might as well have my share.

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

Only thing is with the other hobbies that you spend $10k on to enjoy doesn't directly affect the market as far as what bars will pay.  Once word is out that there are companies willing to do it for nothing or next to nothing, then it directly affects price structure within a community.



Again, no comparison, their hobby of drinking is still not affecting price structure.



That's their right to make anything a hobby, but again most hobbies don't mess with price structure.



No I love being a kj, but I also understand that it takes money to purchase discs (unless you are a pirate to begin with but that's another story), purchase/maintain/upgrade equipment, books & supplies.  Can't do all that for free or drinks.  Wish I had your endless cashflow to be able to do so but I wouldn't even try.  I am in a business, business is here to make money.  Clubs know they should have to pay for entertainment it's part of their business.



No yo're not hurting yourself, you ARE hurting other karaoke 'businessmen'.



Most of these are considered hacks as well.



Alot of 'paid' kj's don't get paid enough because of people doing it for free so they figure why bother let the hacks ruin the business.  I care very much for my business, singers & karaoke in general.  I do more private shows now, simply because of the clubs around here won't pay more than $100 because of people who 'do it for fun'!

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

 I stand corrected Sir...  :oh yeah: You are right...

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Karaoke does not have to be a business. It is fun.

Karaoke can be a business, but if you want to prove it put on a better show than people willing to do it for free.

You seem to be define "messing with price structure" as something that is wrong.

If there are too many people willing to do your business for free (or less money)then it is your business model that is wrong. Not the FREE choice of the people who do it for fun.


I had a bar that wanted me to replace their paid KJ.....

If your only way to protect your karaoke job is to call others that undercut you hacks or scabs shows that your business model is dead. You have never seen my karaoke show. I am not a "hack".



As for scuba people, (i used to scuba regularly) yes a lot of them do lend gear to friends on a regular basis. Same with people who own boats, they regualarly invite friends or family to enjoy the boat.  I have been on many friends boats over time. Once you are invovled in the boating or scuba community and are friendly at it, it is not at all hard to get a boat ride or borrow some scuba gear from someone who was a stranger just a few weeks before. Sure it is not monitary capital but it is social capital that gets these "Favors".

The owning of most boats is to bring friends out and enjoying the boat together. Look at boats, in most cases it is not just the owner of the boat out there on the boat. Often the boat is lent to a friends and the owner is not even on it.

Many of the people at my Karaoke shows are my friends, I am earning my compensation in social capital not monitary capital. By providing my karaoke for free I increase the chance that other friends will share me in their other "hobbies" where they have invested.


The going price for a karaoke KJ is determined by supply, demand and quality, just like any other product. The problem of pirated songs does increase the "supply" of KJs and can change the going price in an unfair way. On the other hand you have no legit complaint about someone who is going to undercut your rate legaly. Either prove you are a better KJ than those willing to undercut your rates or go with the rates that your local market will pay.

Sadly, with the advent of internet and free downloads, the market, in this area at least, has become saturated with real hacks. In their excitement to reap greater profits for their establishments, places begin hiring these 'hacks' for $100 or less. It has taken a while, but ultimately they have RUINED karaoke in this area, and when legitimate and pro-caliber hosts like me approach these places, they get this glazed look in their eyes and assume a defensive posture. It is a real shame that hosting establishments have been swashbuckled by these hack pirates...the caliber of the average show has suffered immeasurably.  

Ironically, I go into a place, set up my expensive and top quality equipment, do a great show, and people rave about it. I have no trouble getting what I ask for, but I am in the position of fighting this reputation that karaoke has gotten in this area.

It is a difficult concept for places to grasp - you get what you pay for. They figure pay a host $100 and make $400 that night, hey, we're laughing. Pay a host $200 and make $1000 - they don't seem to be able to figure basic percentages apparently.

I assume most of the KJs on here have a karaoke business.  Business means they want paid for work they do.

Anyone that KJs for fun or food, is doing it as a hobby.

I have a business.  I set the price for my worth.  Not the bar owner.

Doctors set their fees.  Hospitals tell you how much a room is.

Lawyers tell you their price.

The bar drink prices are what they are.  You don't go in and negotiate the price.  Hey i want a $10 pitcher of beer for $5 because that's all the money i have.  They will tell you to drink elsewhere.   So why should i be any different.  Here it is pal, take it or leave it.

If a bar owner tells me what they are willing to pay, then i decide if i am willing to settle for that price.  (KEY WORD HERE IS SETTLE)  Means i'm taking a cut by choice.

When you are good and in demand, that is subject to change.  I tell them my price.  Do you want me or some other cheaper KJ?

I want me fee.  If you can afford to pay it and think i'm worth it, then you will pay the fee i ask.  Business 101

The other point to consider here is a lot of places are thinking in terms of "Better the devil you know than you don't know." They've been through so many bad hosting companies that they are reticent to risk starting yet ANOTHER company. I find this to be true - like a lot of people who aren't really happy with the service they're getting with a provider (phone, mechanic, cable) but rather than disrupt everything and risk further disappointment, they just stick with what they have.

I had to laugh, went on a guy's website and he lists all the places he's played at - there was probably 100. Where does he play now?  two places...THAT'S RIGHT, TWO PLACES.  So all those other places are places where he's gone and burned out karaoke and got cut loose.  Why on earth would a person list all the places they've played at when it numbers that many? Apparently he didn't think of it in those terms..."Places I've ruined for karaoke in the future."

His secret on this? He only allowed songs of 3 minutes or less! Then he could fit 75 singers in. What a genius!

He is one guy, doing what he wants to do.

I suggest you, EElvis, and Timberlea form the Karaoke Guys Union. You go around to people's houses and threaten them, and force them to stop doing things for the love of it.

Yes karaoke is fun, it USED to be a lucrative business.  I would say I put on a better show than most, but why on earth would a bar PAY when they can get something for free?  That is STUPID business on their behalf.    Gee free or pay...you figure it out.



When it screws with the real businesses, yes it is wrong.



You see the business model is thrown out the window due to hobbiests that charge nothing to bars.  Again, why would the pay someone when they can get it for free?  There was a time that I could make $80 a year with 1 system in clubs 7 nights a week.  Due to free/cheap companies, no company will ever see that again, so basically they not only cut the throat of all competition, but cut theirs as well as they probably COULD have made some good money.


I had a bar that wanted me to replace their paid KJ.....[/quote]

GEE I wonder why, can you come and do MY bar for free too?  



I already stated the business model is dead, what USED to be a lucrative business is now a joke because of cheapy hobbiests.  Your show may be the best on Earth, too bad you'll probably never see a dime from it.



Again, these hobbies do not screw with legitimate business.



Yeah my creditors don't accept 'social' capital.




Problem is more with pirates, this is true.  But I have YET to be undercut in such a dramatic manner from a legit company either so no I have no complaints, the legit company is in business as well & wouldn't cut their own throat either.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Whatever, you being more of a hobbiest wouldn't understand either.  But I have heard you have done some pro shows, did you do those for free too?  Why charge, it's fun right.  
Pro sports players should just do it for the love of the game as well.

You want to do it as a hobby, great, invite your friends over, set up a bar in your basement & run a show.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I have seen many bar owners pay KJs well to kill their business.

If they don't run a rotation, make people sound bad by messing with the settings, have a cheap sounding system and many other things that i wouldn't consider doing.

They are legal KJs just aren't real KJs.

No you set what you believe yourself to be worth. The market (and that includes the bar owners) decides what you are worth. Your worth includes things like the number of bars, drinkers and singers in the area. You can only set your minimal price.

You set your minimal price by how much you feel your imputs to run a show are and how much you get out of it (including your non monitary benefits including how fun it is for your). For some people the non-monetary benefit is enough.  

Your maximum worth is what your show provides the bar in additional profits. This is adjusted by how many other KJs are in your area that could provide a similar service to the bar.

Your worth is not how much you spent on songs or sound system.

If you feel threatened by people who charge less than you, your perception of your worth is wrong not your worth. Your worth may change as more kjs enter the market, the bars try other forms of entertainment.

I can't make my shows worth $100, $200 or more by saying that is what I am worth.

Even if you have an expensive karaoke rig, it is not worth much in a town with one bar and 10 Kjs with good rigs.

The bar decides your worth by what you provide them. They also take into account how much other KJs can provide them.

Even if you are able to make your bar increase sales by $1000 a night you are not necesaraly worth a high salary if there are a lot of other KJs in your area that could provide that same $1000 increase in sales that are willing to do the show for $100 or less.

If you have been a KJ for any length of time in an area, you should have a proven track record about how much you can provide a bar. If a bar tries to replace you with someone who undercuts your rates, the will either come back to you if they underestimated your value or stay with the new person if you over estimated yours.

If a lawyer or hospital charges too much, then another lawer or hospital would move in and undercut their rates. Same in karaoke, if rates are high then more people will learn to be Kjs some will be good, maybe better than you.

Unlike a hospital or lawyer, it does not take a huge investment to become a KJ. The barriers to entry into Karaoke are falling. It is a whole lot easer to buy karaoke equipment and songs today than even a few years ago (due to the internet stores selling karaoke). The result is that it is a lot easier to be a KJ and there are more of them. Prices (and worth of a Kj) are falling. Supply and Demand.

Buisness 1 not even Business 101.

I had a bar that wanted me to replace their paid KJ.....[/quote]


Probably not. The person trying to hire me had no idea of the rates I had negotiated with my bar. He just said I was a LOT better than their current KJ.

As I have said before, many times, I would not just do ANY karaoke show for free.

I would have to think long and hard if they even offered me $250 or $300 a night to KJ there. I dont like that bar. The answer would still probably be no. There are a few dozen bars around town that I wouldnt do a regular show even if they paid me $500 a night. I dont want to be around rude drunks who can't sing even if paid well.

Funny you should mention hospitals as an analogy. I've been in the medical field for 25 years (I do medical transcription).  In the last 20 years, what we earn has fallen to horrible levels...Why? Because our jobs are OUTSOURCED to overseas companies. Yup, next time you go visit your doctor, ask to read your medical record. It is likely to be FULL of mistakes. People whose first language is NOT English are transcribing medical records.

The other notable fact related to that: The hospitals are full of doctors who have immigrated to this country with dollar signs in their eyes. Of course if they are making $1000 a month in their home country and are offered $10,00 a month in our country, what will they do? So you have a bunch of foreign doctors who  are ESL (English as a second language) practitioners who open up the hospitals to horrendous malpractice due to their inability to say what they need to say. Believe me, I have been on the headset end of these people for years, and it isn't pretty.  

Oh, and likely your x-rays are read by a practitioner in a foreign country. BUT, this is NOT going to change until the multitude of likely medical malpractice suits all hit the news at the same time.

So, in a way, what is happening to the karaoke biz is happening in a lot of fields, just on a wider scale in the case of medicine.

So I set my price by what I believe i'm worth, so you set yours by the same standard of what you feel you are worth I would assume, you charge nothing, does this in the same statement mean you set your price to to reflect what you are worth?



For most normal people, non-monetary isn't.



But it is a part of the worth value.



See there you go again, I don't feel threatened by anyone charging less.  The fact is bars won't pay a good company anymore when they can get half (@$%&#!) to downright crap companies for free or next to nothing.  Why would they pay, again, as business owners that would be stupid on their behalf.  But on the same token I simply can't understand why anyone would want to purchase thousands of dollars worth of gear, discs, books, supplies, maintenance, upgrades, additions to do for free.  This is not a normal sense of logic to most.  Money going out on a regular basis, nothing coming in from it.



No but you could go along with the average market price for kj's without going free.



Then you go to another town.  Seriously doubt that in a one bar town that there would be 10 local kj's trying to seek out that one & only lone bar, they would more than likely go to the next town & if there isn't one within a reasonable amount of miles/time then they are definitely in the wrong business.



So your bar feels you are worth nothing?



Again, my point, if the kj's are good & can provide the same quality, they are cheapening themselves and the industry by going cheaper.  Or they are just flat out have no skills and HAVE to get jobs by going in low.



Yep i've been kj'ing in the area since 90.  But since the advent of piracy, track record no longer plays a factor when someone can offer something for free, bars are cheap, they will always take the pay nothing over pay something route.  I have literally watched undercutters turn GOOD clubs into desert wasteland & then the club blames karaoke...not the company, but karaoke in general.



Again I have no problem with LEGIT undercutting, because if the other company is actually buying all their stuff, discs, etc, they aren't going to undercut by much because they are in business as well.  But I seriously doubt as a matter of fact I can GUARANTEE you are going to find a doctor or a lawyer to work for free to get a job because they really like to do it.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]