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Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11903		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
http://www.krem.com/topstories/stories/ ... 27bf5.html

http://www.krem.com/video/featured-inde ... vid=205544

5 songs that are targeted are
Give Me One Reason - Tracy Chapman
Toxic - Britney Spears
I Feel Lucky - Mary Chapin Carpenter
Luka - Suzanne Vega
Queen Of Hearts - Juice Newton

Supposedly for copyright infringement - supposedly using ORIGINAL discs - they did state that all music was purchased legit - but didn't state if it was converted or not?  Playing songs that they had no right, the bar claims they bought all their music legit.
It will be interesting to find out what happens ESPECIALLY if they are using original discs and not even copied or converted files.
Author:  DJMojo [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
A couple things I find interesting-

How would the labels know if the bar was using bogus music ? It legal to make backup copies, right? Maybe the labels sent some sort of spy to the bar that went up and starting BSing with the KJ and got him to admit something without the KJ knowing who he was talking to.

And why would the TV station have a copy of the lawsuit before the bar?

Hey Lonman, since this is in your neck of the woods, keep us posted on any updates.

Mojo
Author:  Karen K [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
Thanks for the posting, Lonman. I'd be very interested to know if this bar is using a CAVS player, a hard drive, or playing original CDG's - and if it is their own system or a subcontractor.  It'd be very alarming if they were using their own copies of it - seems like that would be more of a nuisance lawsuit if that's the case. I have all five of those songs on original CDs, and right about now am very thankful that I am LEGIT! There'll be a few nervous KJ's around my area when this info gets posted for the public to view...amen!

k
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
DJMojo @ Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:53 am wrote:
A couple things I find interesting-

How would the labels know if the bar was using bogus music ? It legal to make backup copies, right? Maybe the labels sent some sort of spy to the bar that went up and starting BSing with the KJ and got him to admit something without the KJ knowing who he was talking to.

And why would the TV station have a copy of the lawsuit before the bar?

Hey Lonman, since this is in your neck of the woods, keep us posted on any updates.

Mojo


Technically no it's not legal to use backups or format shifted music in commercial environments, but this isn't even stated.  It's more than likely a publishing issue where they didn't pay their ascap/bmi fees.  But if it is a case of true copyright WITH original discs, this will be interesting.
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
Karen K @ Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:58 am wrote:
Thanks for the posting, Lonman. I'd be very interested to know if this bar is using a CAVS player, a hard drive, or playing original CDG's - and if it is their own system or a subcontractor.  It'd be very alarming if they were using their own copies of it - seems like that would be more of a nuisance lawsuit if that's the case. I have all five of those songs on original CDs, and right about now am very thankful that I am LEGIT! There'll be a few nervous KJ's around my area when this info gets posted for the public to view...amen!

k


Again, more than likely it's a lack of payment to the proper publishers ascap/bmi/etc..  But we'll see, hopefully we can get someone closer to the area that may be able to keep it updated.
Author:  sidewinder [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
So he buys an original disc to take to court and he wins.  

Bad Guy: Where is the receipt?  

Good Guy:  It was a birthday present.  Prove it wasn't!!!


Judge:  Good Guy, You win. :hi5:
Author:  DJMojo [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
If it was a BMI/ASCAP issue, couldnt they get them on just about every song?
Many years ago, someone told me ASCAP had never lost a court case againt a bar.

Mojo
Author:  OperaKitty [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
DJMojo @ Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:43 pm wrote:
If it was a BMI/ASCAP issue, couldnt they get them on just about every song?


I was wondering that same thing.  If it's an issue with licensing - not paying ASCAP/BMI/whoever - why would it only affect 5 songs?  Or is it that the karaoke company that produced those songs never properly acquired the licensing for those specific songs?  But then why just go after one bar?  So many questions.....
Author:  Flipper [ Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
must be some sort of ASCAP, BMI beef. If the guy actually owns the disc then what's the problem? We all have those songs in our library....does this mean that those songs cannot be played? I dunno sounds kinda fishy to me...lol

Unless the problem is with playing the disc for public performance.

It will be interesting to see what happens
Author:  sidewinder [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
They said Federal case.  Would that be ASCAP/BMI?  They are just money collectors for the music (media) being played.

Copyright infringement has nothing to do with performing rights payments. ASCAP/BMI

To me that means you stole the music and claimed you own in. (AS IN YOU CLAIM YOU ORIGINALLY WROTE IT)

Or if you somehow used it without permission for profit.  It still sounds fishy.

Were the original writers of the songs in the audience?   Did anyone witness a fake copy of the CD being used?   Was it a laptop show?   Still sounds like it's in left field.

Freeze frame the copy of the lawsuit.  It's the music publishers that are named on it.  EMI APRIL MUSIC, PURPLE RABBIT MUSIC, NEW DON SONGS, WAIFAIRER SONGS LTD, WB MUSIC SONGS


For Allegedly stealing their music.   Did he use a gun and rob them? LMAO

If he has proof he bought the original music, he owns it and has a legal right to play it.  If he plays it for profit then he pays ASCAP/BMI.

I really can't understand how they figure he stole anything.  He didn't claim it was his original song/musical score.  

They must have hired an out of work ambulance chaser.  I predict he walks.
Author:  karyoker [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
It's not ASCP/BMI  or RIAA A click on the pics link shows the original Sound Choice in jewel case.
filing docket


History of lawsuits.
results?


Google The Grail restaruant lawsuits.
Author:  Lonman [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
DJMojo @ Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:43 pm wrote:
If it was a BMI/ASCAP issue, couldnt they get them on just about every song?
Many years ago, someone told me ASCAP had never lost a court case againt a bar.

Mojo


Because it may be that those were the only songs actually performed that night that the publishing house represents.  It wouldn't necessarily cover the entire library since it wasn't actually performed that particular evening.  ASCAP/BMI are performing rights - which again leads me to believe is a publishing issue rather than a copyright case - becasue if they were using original discs, there is no copyright infringment.  If they are using copies or hard drives, then yes, but then they would be going after the entire collection & not just a handful of songs.
Author:  Lonman [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
Here is the copy of the complaint filed.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... 8F0EAB78DC

It's in a pdf format.
Author:  Karen K [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
Okay, I think I'll just remove those 5 songs from my collection - or not allow them to be sung...Seems odd that the owners of the copyright will suffer such IRREPARABLE damage by having these songs sung at karaoke. Can you say EXAGGERATE?  Oh man, what's this biz coming to. I should think they'd be looking harder for the people who have freely downloaded thousands of copies of those songs pre-Napster lawsuit.

Lon, I'm thinking about calling this guy - I may contact Ty at the rag and see if I can include an article in Feb's edition about this very subject. Be interesting to know the gritty details. Thanks for linking to the complaint.

K
Author:  Flipper [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
After reading the pdf file my comment that it is a ASCAP Beef still stands.

I betcha the owner refused to pay his ASCAP Fees and really ticked them off and this is the way that ASCAP deals with it legally. They can get really nasty and they have alot of power to pull the right strings. This looks like a perfect example of them pulling the right strings. ASCAP is not suing him but the folks who get money from ASCAP for performance rights are.

I would be willing to bet that the disc was legal. The public performance of any karaoke disc for commercial purposes without paying performance rights is the issue here. I'm guessing they will charge him for the ASCAP fees for 2007 and make him pay for 2008 in advance. Then he will probably be on the tab for the legal fees involved.

That's why whenever a bar owner balks at paying ASCAP or BMI fees I tell them they are playing with fire. Some have been successful at avoiding them because some of the reps have poor follow up skills and the bar falls through the cracks and gets lost in the shuffle, but I tell them eventually they will catch up with them. Most bars you are looking at like $400 to $1000 a year and it is a tax write-off so why chance it.
Author:  mckyj57 [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
Lonman @ Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:40 pm wrote:
Because it may be that those were the only songs actually performed that night that the publishing house represents.

It may be the ones they have solid evidence for. They undoubtedly have to document things with witnesses, provenance for the publisher, etc.  It is probably expensive to do in some dimension, so they chose five.

I doubt the pockets are deep enough to seriously propose the multimillion dollar damages that could be claimed with 40 songs.
Author:  exweedfarmer [ Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
I'm from Spokane and fifteen or so years ago I played music at the Studio K.  Back then, it was a very interesting place.  If it is still interesting in the same way, this whole thing might not be karaoke related at all.  Kudos to all of you who gathered so much information so quickly.
Author:  sidewinder [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
Upon reading the entire complaint.  It sounds like he was given an ample opportunity to make payment/s to ASCAP for doing karaoke.  It also sounds like he told them to pound salt.

WE ALL know that ASCAP has the power from above to make you comply one way or another.

I publicly retract my statement that he will walk.

He will go down for his "crime."  Of being STUPID.

He will make restitution to ASCAP. And it's going to cost him his business, his marriage and a whole lot more.   For what...about $3-400 a year. :whistle:
Author:  karyoker [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
BTW the Bull& Bear lawsuit was settled by the owner agreeing to pay a yearly fee of less than $1000/yr The judge would not allow extra financial stress That case was instigated by ASCAP reps and not by unknown companies If you read the docket in my first link google any one of them  like Purple Rabbit Music. The only results will be lawsuits and no signs of a valid business.

settlement

In the history link of those bogus companies suing the first litigant was The Grail Resaurant. A further google "Grail restuarant  karaoke lawsuit" revealed a lawsuit by Grail where they were suing the Idaho State Police for something the year before.

Until the copyright antiquated laws concerning karaoke are actually tested in a District court any opinions are guesses about legalities. Normally lawmakers pass new laws with technical advances. The only thing the present congress can do is vote themselves a pay raise.
Author:  Flipper [ Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spokane, WA bar getting sued for copyright infringment
I seriously doubt if they guy will lose his business over the deal. He's gonna have to pay his ASCAP Fees and his legal fees.
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