Karaoke Forums

I like to "sandwich" the negative in between positive comments- but we only have 1000 characters to do that. THEN if you do offer something less than praise- I think you owe it to the singer to be specific as to why it didn't work- and what they can do to improve on it. The 1000 character limit makes that difficult to do.

Any thought on how to get around this dilema? I'd like to be tactful- but that takes saying things that don't sound so blunt. I also think the limit is the reason many times-that when negative comments are left- they are taken so personally by the singer. Sometimes "blunt" but short is not the best way to get your point across. There have been many times where i just kept quiet because I knew it would take too much space to say what I needed to say without hurting the singers feelings.

Does anyone on there have a way of starting with a positive- giving the suggestion for improvement- then ending on another positive- or even another idea for critiquing altogether- that would fit in the 1000 character limit?

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I think the easiest thing to do if someone subs under C is to ask them if they really want a critique and if so it will be available in singersshowcase under the critique thread
that way it allows for questions to be answered

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

btw hello sweety nice to have you back  :hug:

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Regardless of how you word it Paula, the person is going to know that you didn't think it was up to snuff, the truth hurts. You can't really ride the fence, you either have to be relentless or fluffy, your choice....just my opinion of course...

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that Nathan. A person can have a great sub but distort on one phrase. Why can't I tell them I liked this- that one sentence was a bit high- pull back on your vocals there- but then you really did this great at the end? I leave them with something they can use to improve- but they still feel good about what they got "right"

As a pro singer I have never ...make that NEVER recorded a song i though was perfect...but I have done many that I enjoy listening to and sharing with others. If they notice the same flaws I do and point them out- yet still tell me they loved the song- what's wrong with that? I think relentless is too strong a word. "Not quite up to snuff" can be a good thing depending on where you are...it's not "perfect" but it beats the HeLL out of "thats sucks" ( wink)


BTW Vik hey GF- good to BE back!

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Valid points Paula, but I think alot of the reaction rides on who it is giving the critique, there is a big difference between a singer like you giving advice, and Joe Blow who can't stay on pitch, and sounds like he's singing at the bottom of a bucket giving advice.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

I think people would take a critique more graciously from a member of the opposite sex too, I have an experiment in mind if anyone would like to test this theory.......

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Ever heard Simon Cowell sing? he totally SUX..beyond belief sucking- yet he has a wonderful ability to hear great things and to help find super talent. yeah- I probably am given a bit more credibility when I do say something less than praise because I'm a pro...but I would hope that if the shoe fits I could wear it. Listener X made a comment or two to me that I totally took and learned from. And he is a good singer but not "pro" ( he could be with some work) but before I ever heard him open his mouth- there was validity in his comments.

People who ask for critique should be open to the fact that some of the comments come from people who have no singing ability. But they all can hear. This is what makes most of an audience. Singing should not be a pre requisite for critiqing...but there should also be more to a comment than "that was bad" and many times a non singer can tell if it is good or bad- but not be able to explain "why" But all critiques should have value.

I just think there should be a tactful way to get your point across without blasting someone's confidence out of the water. THAT is what this thread is about. How do you get that done in 1000 words or less. but you do have a valid point about "is the energy it takes to give such a critique worth the expendature" Good point.

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Your really going to bring Simon Cowell into this?.....With all due respect, the guy is a corrupt businessman, he has given more questionable critiques on AI than I can count. You can take any average Joe off the street and put him in a million dollar studio, he will sound like a million dollars.  Your completely right that a persons own singing ability should not be a factor, but when people are critiqued in a negative manner, that's usually the first card they pull...look at what happened to listenerX, almost everyone said to him.."well let's hear you do it better buddy"

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

And I am staying on topic, my point of view is that no proper method of critique exists in SS, simply because people  (the vast majority) can't handle one.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

That's known as the "Up-down-up" technique. It's quite effective.  There are numerous ways.  ASSUMING this question is asking "What's the proper technique for giving someone a "critique" in the Singers Showcase" ?  You're going to find yourself often in a lose-lose scenerio.  Reason being, few in the showcase care enough to even look up the term and understand what they are truly asking for when they sub for Critique. Instead the members demand the term be redefined in that setting.  Do yourself a favor and ask them instead to Sub in "Singers Forum" Critique thread,  It's a moderated room, sort've like a "safe-trade" that minimizes fall-out from the explosion that ensues when a Critique bomb is setoff, to critique in the showcase is to walk into the ultimate fighting arena with no ref..  (and also let somebody else besides ME sing in that room.. I'm scaring people away), I know I'm a sub-par singer, and I still enjoy singing ANYWAY in a place where under "5" ranks are allowed and welcomed without judgement, we just don't want somebody insulting us by giving us a high rank (to keep us from losing our bowels) I really loath dishonesty among those that TRULY want honesty, and wish to grow..It's the worst thing a person can do to a nother person... LIE.. We need an area for those that are willing to accept they have A LOT to learn before they can become a "7" rank singer after singing 100's of songs..SHEESH, what's WRONG with that ? Doesn't get much better int he real world.. Oh yeah, back to the showcase.. I'd recommend building a foundation for Critiquing online by doing it in the Singers Forum which is moderated) .. You take unnecessary risks in the showcase regardless of HOW "proper" your Critique technique is. In fact, the "TRUE" Critique offered in the showcase will be construed as Pompous, Cruel, unnecessarily analytical, and bother MANY others reading (what to them is) condescension, and a diatribe in "Stepford Showcase' stemming from a past unresolved grudge playing itself out.. Problem is,  if a person can't deal with getting a "rank" lower than a 9.  A critique is quite likely out've place, and in fact it's probably dishonest and wasted... I won't Critique anybody who I don't believe would handle an appropriate and honest accompanying "grade" of perhaps a "7" and believe me, a "7" to me at this point is a pipe dream, and something to strive for, and I'll only sub in a venue where people are allowed to not be perfect, and have others tell them that, and rather than challenge others for trying to help them, THANK THEM for taking the time to try to help them improve.. There's NOTHING negative about telling a person asking for a critique, that an area can stand improvement.. I wish people would STOP calling any part of the process NEGATIVE... It's QUITE POSITIVE.. You are lending them an ear they themselves likely don't have and THAT is what enabled them to improve, and know what to hone in on ! OK, sorry I'm typing like I'm angry but it's one of those days I can use a few drinks....HAHA...Grrrr..  but when a music instructor tells somebody how they can improve a performance is THAT negative ? When two piers quiz one-another and correct the mistakes made is THAT negative ? Hardly. These are adults in the showcase trashing the chance of others improving by ruining the Critique process... If in doubt it's best for your own sanity IMO to NOT give those you aren't certain can handle a critque in the showcase a critique. It's a far contrast from "Fluff", but even if they accept the critique, others will resent you for it..  (To me "Fluffing" somebody that truly wants honesty to improve is the epitome of "negative".. To lie to them because it's so much easier, and quickly gets them out've the way too.)
How many that can sing, learned to sing by instructors LYING to them ? I doubt many..
Don't set yourself up for being ganged up on by cry babies who don't wish for you giving them what they ask for.. "A Critique" in the showcase.  The fact that this happens, and some of the very individuals that've attacked others who in the past left them a Critique years back are STILL sub'ing under "C" is a disgrace IMHO...Those caring and honest and mature who enjoy singing enough to wish to improve should never be the ones that get beat up for trying to oblique those stating they too wish to improve with help of their friends via Critique):... Yet currently nothing stops this from happening in the showcase.  

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Part two:  "There can be no proper technique in an improper setting"

It's just not a Critique friendly environment by any stretch of ones imagination..  In fact twice over the past three years,  I've gotten PM's from two different individuals stating "I enjoyed reading your Critique, wow it's intense, do me a favor,  please don't ever be that tough on me, I'd rather you pass me altogether"...  I really felt like telling them the truth meaning
"Don't flatter yourself, I haven't the heart to try to initiate the cleaning of your mud puddle you love basking in, you are making a complete jackass out've yourself to the rest of the listening world however, ONLY because you are conducting yourself like your really are a "Pro singer" but far beit from me to pee on your slovenly performance. The fact that you need to think you are so good, yet you aren't willing to do what it takes to improve is pathetic"..  Some really have an emotional need (in the showcase) to get cheap praise that's really so very easy for others to give (as the path of the least resistance) that others of us learned the first few years of life is so much more rewarding when EARNED ~  I enjoy starting off as a really low rank, and getting USED to that from the start.  With help and honesty MAYBE one day,  I'll be an honest 6... and blow most of the showcase '9's out've the water...
To me THAT'S what honesty is about.. People telling me something isn't too good, when in fact to me realsitically it CAN'T be "good".. I don't have a friggin clue what I'm doing, I don't even know how to breath and project.. and if I sub in the showcase it's MY SINGING folks are listening to.. Not "Karaoke"..

JMHO...  Problem is,  when people get spoiled from day 1 by ridiculously high ranks (that are just free cookies and milk)... many get sucked into fantasyland, and as stated they DO become hooked on the positive affirmation of "9" false ranks offered, IE... "You are a nice person, I like you.. Here's a 9, and now you owe me"... and as a result,  they are sucky singers with a wall full of high ranks and trophies earned thru politics,  yet they are 3-7 rank singers who DO NOT wish for any sign of honesty !    The onus falls on the person offering the Critique to such individuals because in order to know who you can safely critique requires you to be  telepathic and read their minds.  If not today,  maybe tomorrow when they have heartburn, or their panties are in a bunch....

Oh yeah,  regarding the OP's question:  LOL
Currently I leave a comment in the Critique category.  "If you wish for a Critique on this song feel free to PM me", and I do this if I'm VERY familiar with the song, and believe I can offer help. Otherwise, I've learned from others mistakes in the Singers Showcase. Why let emotionally dishonest babies trash me for trying to fulfill something that's intended to do them a favor in that "Showcase" and help them ?  WAY too many sub for Critique, and cry like a wounded child when you don't tell them how great they were.. If Critiquing people is urinating on their parade, but they STILL dare ask people to urinate on their parade despite knowing they don't wish for a Critique.. They really should be prohibited from Sub'ing under "C".  Yet a few of the same offenders still sub under "C", and it's just another landmine about to go off when a well-meaning individuals attempts to obligue them..

Until the Showcase is moderated, do yourself a favor, MAKE DAMN CERTAIN that the person asking for the "Critique" doesn't think the term is synonomous with-
"Feel free to tell me why I was only a 9.8 as opposed to my usual 10, and you damn well better be able to defend it or else bash somebody else".  VERY few want a Critique..  Critique's are for "singers" who wish to improve and KNOW they aren't genuinely 9's..   Not people Singing in the showcase who are emphatic that Singers SHowcase is "just karaoke", and not their singing that people are listening too...BWAHAHAHAHA.  You believe that ?   People try to rationalize saying "It's just Karaoke?"..   How many go into SIngers SHowcase to listen to the "Backing" ?  Why would "Just Karaoke for fun" be set up as a contest ?  (Because it's a draw true, but in setting up a competitive atmosphere, WHO THE HECK rates the Karaoke backings ?  Seems it's "THe SInger" that people are ranking and critiquing... As long as people wish to feel "It's just fun karaoke", don't take the risk of "Critiquing" them, because the fact is, Critique is serious, it's intense, and it can sting... SOME of us really want that at the beginning.. It's healthier in that it allows for GROWTH as a singer..  Yet many in the showcase aren't there to grow as singers,  they are there instead to digress back to Nursery School where everybody gets the gold star for effort.. SO WHY set up a competitive scenerio ?  OH yeah,  besides the fact that it does draw people ?   Well,  Try treating it as a TRUE competition where everybody doesn't get a Gold-Star and enjoy your stay in "Slingers Showcase"..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One of the better song critique in this Forum is Steven; and he almost is as good as being a bad singer as me.  Singing is an artistic skill just like fashion design, panting acting. the most respected critic i those respective field of arts are seldom the the practisonor (sp) of that art.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

You and I still need to have a competition Jian.  Let the public vote determine who the proud winner of the lowest rank score will be !  


Seriously tho.  I'm proud to have made some friends in here that are GENUINELY spectacular singers.  As a beginner the stupidest thing I could do is THINK that I am anywhere near their rank as a singer. Knowing my place, being accepted as I actually am, and listening to what those with so much more experience have to offer without questioning their opinion and advice is the smart thing to do. There's something really nice about not having to feel that I'm competing in an environment, I've already won and earned my place at the bottom   But for me to alienate those in here with amazing talent, is to alienate people that can help me come closer to my goal which is maybe being average someday as a singer,  I don't expect anything beyond.  If it appears that I'm better off not as a lead vocalist down the road, but instead as a backup vocalist, I'd be thrilled with that too.. I just want to be where I belong and where I'm comfortable because worst case scenerio.. I'm still better off then I was before I tried singing even if actual "singer" (as a title) among a group of singers isn't in the cards for me.  I practice, and try hard and if I have a tough time now.. Maybe two years from now I'll get better..  I just don't want to ever be made to feel something I sing is acceptable, if people are saying to themselves... Damn that sucks..

Jian,  I think those of us that have the toughest time singing can gain the most from a site such as this.

I enjoy being able to participate in an area without having to worry about "being good", or impressing others. It relaxing for me, (especially when I keep the volume of my voice VERY low)  LOL

In *MY* particular case,  the proper way to critique me,  is just be yourself.. and say it as you would if I wasn't listening.. Seriously,  it's that easy, If it SUCKS tell me it sucks.  If you don't,  everybody else will behind my back anyway, I can't hear myself as I sound, I need to borrow others ears and accept what they say without question... It's also important to me that I get used to NOT being fluffed, because as Jian stated, this is an artistic area and it takes hard work.. I want to hear how I can improve, I ESPECIALLY want to know what many consider to be "negative" stuff about my singing. Reason being, I don't want to keep doing that negative stuff over and over again.. Unless I know what it is... I'll keep doing it.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Paula,

  I think the answer here is pretty straighforward.  You've had singing instruction, you've been in the pro singing environment.. Just share with others what you've learned from your instruction and years of experience. Same way an instructor shares suggestions and knowledge with those that have less experience.. You know some of the tricks involved.. Beginners such as myself know almost NONE.

   In an atmosphere where people TRULY want and expect to be told how they can improve,  Critiquing doesn't need to be formal.  No need to make it into a big deal.. Only goal is to try to help somebody to improve in areas that can stand for improvment in your opinion.. Those that want critique will be thankful for what you point out.  I don't assume anybody is telling me anything during a critique that's not for my own good,  and the delivery of the critique need not be softened because I'm excited to learn new things.  I don't see anything negative about the process, so the more somebody points out what's lousy, the more they are helping me to not repeat that weak area... It's ALL positive, because the goal is "TO IMPROVE"

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Amen Nathan!

Although I've been a pro singer for years you walk an extremely thin line when you try, even in a positive way, to offer a critique on someone's performance.  The best way I know to handle it is try and be as objective as possible but to still give positive feedback because the old adage is definitely true:  negativity breeds negativity.

Offering a blow-by-blow critique in SS won't work for several reasons:  

1)  You are limited to the number of characters you can type (although there are ways around it ).  The easiest way to overcome that is to give a brief overview then offer a more detailed critique via PM or one of the Critique Threads in this forum; then again you run into the problem that not everyone on SS has access to the Singer's Forum.  Not necessarily a no-win situation but definitely problematic

2)  Most members in the Showcase believe they're able to sing and some can get quite huffy if you try to offer "pointers" on how to improve their abilities/techniques, especially if you're not sly enough to word your critique to a degree where they won't be offended and will absorb the information in the vein intended.  Again a no-win situation.

3)  Some believe they don't need any help whatsoever (egos), not even when it's worded in the most objective, courteous way possible.  That's not to say everyone will react the same way but again a no-win situation.

4)  You're not always able to tell if someone is truly asking for a critique because that whole Ranking nonsense is involved.  That should really be flushed down the toilet because it's useless as t*ts on a boar hog.

I could go on and on for pages about why giving a detailed critique in the Showcase won't just not work but can't work.  Maybe at least a partial solution would be to open an exclusive Critique Forum where all members would be granted access.  Hmmmmmm, something to think about.

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]

Whatcha got in mind

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]

Agreed 100%, and there is a critique thread already in place, it's been there since early November, alot of people have viewed it but noone seems to want to participate...

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Ooooh it would be an evil undertaking Cathi, we'd probably need Vicki to do it.....

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Buuuuuuuuwahahahahaha

I think I know Vicki's mind well enough to know she'll say yes  LMAO

Count me in!!!  

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]