Karaoke Forums

Hi like many others I see on this forum i've begun the long journey from cdg disks to a computer based Karaoke show. I've successfully copied my cdgs to hard drive,  made a backup to an external 500 gb hard drive and i'm looking at the next step of setting up the sound side of the computer.   I used power karaoke to copy my discs.  I saved them in mp3+g format.  I'm using an hp pavilion laptop computer which I upgraded to two gigs of memory.  I've also added a 160 gig second hard drive to this computer.  So far i've used the phone jack out to run to my mixer.  The sound is good but I see a lot of comments about external sound cards.  Will this really improve my sound?   What are you using to improve you sound?

Second question.  How many of your are using some type  of USB based mixer to run your shows?  

My conversion to a computer based system is to lose weight and make transporting and setting up my shows easier and simplier.

Thanks

I don't think you are going to get a big improvement, myself. The AC97 and other chipset drivers are pretty darn good at this point.


I used the Alesis Multimix 8 for one show (fixed install). Maybe I am not an audiophile, but I don't detect much difference and we are back to using 1/8" to 1/4" (just a cable length issue). Onboard sound has the advantage of not being on-again off-again based on whether the mixer is turned on.


Then lose the weight and clutter of an external USB interface. Either use one in your mixer or just use the internal one.

I disagree. Most laptop sound cards do not have adequate filtering or sheilding due to size constraints. This can result in noise, and in some cases very problematic noise, as many other threads on this site have addressed. They also do not have pre-amps, which most desktop and external sound cards do have. You will generally have to use more amplifier power when running off of internal laptop sound card.

A good quality external sound card will reduce noise, and provide cleaner sound. Also, most quality external sound cards will come with software that will allow you to use them better, and in some cases they will include a quality digital equalizer, which I have found to be very useful.

BTW, The Intel Audio Codec '97 (AC97) is an 11 year old software driver, and really doesn't have much to do with the problem, which is hardware related. Internal laptop sound card hardware is not very good, it is the nature of the beast...there isn't enough room for good hardware.

I don't know why, then, that we see no significant increase in noise when we use the internal sound chip on our Dell Inspiron. We have A/Bed it, with some significant over-1000-watt volume, and see no gain problems at all.

We do get hum if the TV we are plugged into is connected to the cable system, but I get that with my M-Audio Audiophile 192 on my desktop as well.

Seriously, if I saw a problem I would report it. But I am seeing recent laptops producing some pretty good sound.

not to hijack this thread , but I see at looking at a brand new laptop (Dell)
They give you some upgrade options for the internal  audio/sound card
for say $75 it would seem a benefit to upgrade to an internal SOUNDBLASTER type audio card??

mckyj57,

A number of people have said the same thing, but you still need to consider that noise may be different from venue to venue. If you go out on the web and do a little research, you'll find that internal cards just aren't very good. Sure you can equalize them out, and crank more power, but there are better solutions.

Since I've been taking heat for my comments:

I just ran the test again on my DELL Inspiron 1521. The one test I did with my Dell, was to set power level at a point where there was a bit of noise on the internal sound card (this is very subjective, but if you turn the volume up and listen closely, you will hear it). Then I plugged in a SB Audigy external, and then a Turtle Beach Audio Advantage. The noise was gone, and the volume level was double what it was with the internal card. The sound was cleaner, clearer and more full on both the externals. The Audigy was a little soft in terms of sound (less sharp), and some people preferred this to the Turtle Beach.

It's important to have a good quality amplifier and reference speakers. I used a set of Mackie HR824mk2 active studio monitors that a friend had in his studio. This takes all of the other factors out of the equation.

I'm not an audio expert, but I'm sure there are tests that I could do to demonstrate the differences, but, they are already out there on the web.

Even if you don't have a noise problem that you can hear, you can reduce the power your driving your speakers with by using an external. Isn't that worth something...

If you ever get to the point of needing more amp power, go out and pay $1000 for a new amp, rather than spend $50 to 100 on a decent sound card...

I don't know what else to say.

????

I don't know much, but this sounds fishy to me.

When you talk about noise into the input stages, that makes sense to me. But power? It does not make sense.

Levels only matter into the channel and out of the mixer stage. If indeed the internal sound card is producing a lower level, I may need to crank the trim of the channel I am feeding. (I don't see this, myself. The trim is the same.)  I can see that adding noise. But the amount of signal going to my amp is going to be the same.

I am going to listen again, to be sure. I am interested in good sound. But I simply don't believe it will allow me to reduce the power to my speakers by any significant amount.

I shied away from laptops for years and used an M-Audio Delta44.  Then a year or 2 ago i got in payment for installing a sound system a new laptop. I have had it hooked up to several systems and the audio is awesome. A laptop should be plugged into an isolation transformer for power and use the headphone out jack. A proper gain structure will have no problems with floor noise.

It is floor noise or noise floor (level). It's true a laptop has a slightly higher noise floor. If you think it's high crank up a 1000 watt Bogen PA tube amp.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

The audio signal from the headphone output is mainly to drive the headphone. That is the main function. Using that out put to feed the mixer is possible but may bring in some problem.

First is the possibility of ground looping. Remember the headphone is an isolated piece of equipment and a mixer need a current input.

Secondly; audio quality. Signal strength/level may not match that of the input level of your mixer. This is also related to impedance mismatch.

A good pro level sound card will in most case solve those problem.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Good subject...

Depending on the laptop brand, YES, you can get a great sound from the onboard audio chip.  I recently bought a Dell Vostro that uses the Sigmatel High definition audio codec that has NO preamp and when connecting it to my Mackie mixer, I get NO hum and a very clear sound. Of course, you need to give it a little more gain (+4db) but the sound is VERY good.  Now, I bought the Duel adapter (PC card to Express card) which allows me to use my Audigy2 ZS, now, talk about an excellent sound!!  I'm using an EMU-1212m on my desktop and to be honest, I prefer the sound of my laptop with the Audigy ZS over this pro card!  

If your laptop has a pc card (PCMCIA), I strongly recommend the Audigy2 ZS, a best buy for sure!! PS- This card also comes with the EAX Console software, some great effects and key changer...

I had some concerns about the internal sound card.  I hook up through the headphone jack and i have no noise issues or sound quality issues.  To the point that i am no longer thinking about external sound cards.

Why does everyone think they can buy the cheapest laptop they can find and expect the sound card to sound wonderful?

My computer wasn't the top of the line but it wasn't the cheapest.  And i upgraded it to the best of every option they had to offer.

The cheapest laptop available may very well need to have an external sound card... Why not just upgrade to a bigger external computer too.   Cheap anything will never sound good.  That's why you have noise and hum and everything else.    Spend good money the first time and you eliminate a whole lot of trouble.    Don't say laptops are the problem when you got it from a Cracker Jacks Box.

A new $350 laptop computer to me sounds like a kids toy.   You seriously expect to have great quality sound from that?    Good sound cards are $350.   A good processor costs that much.

It also matters what the motherboard can do.   Cheap mother board, with a cheap processor and cheap memory, in a cheap computer with a cheap video card and cheap sound card.  What could be the problem?   Look at a higher end computer with higher quality guts.

Mine is a Compaq Presario V5115US. It is currently for backup only but when used there is no reduction in sound quality.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Headphone impedance is typically 600 ohms which is close enuff to low impedance mic mixer inputs. The headphone amp is a plus/minus op amp which is the same as a line amp (isolation amp) but has a higher than unity gain  to drive 2 headphone speakers.I have actually used the headphone out on the mixer to drive a recorder. Remember the pre trimmers also act as attenuators when turned below unity. In fact the faders are attenuators unless pushed above unity.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

I agree and disagree!  Yes, you can spend more and get a better laptop but price doesn't always do it, for ex: You buy a Compaq, HP or Toshiba with a fast CPU, lot's of ram and lot's of HD space, but, you still can't choose to have a 7200 rpm drive, an onboard Audigy2 audio chip, a better monitor or even have XP instead of Vista???

I don't know how many times I've been giving this advise, why spend all that money if you can't choose??? For less, you can custom made a Dell with all the features you want and they will let you choose from XP or Vista!

Now, of course a higher price HP, Compaq or Toshiba will look better BUT, do you get want you really want or what they are trying to sell you???

I build my own desktop simply because I wish to choose what I think is the best and NOT what the branded company make more profit on!

Interesting Digital audio is not subject to noise. An external DAC would not be susceptible to internal noise (fan etc) Does it have an external DAC? I would assume it does.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Yes it does which makes it easier for the cpu...

For more details:
http://us.creative.com/products/product ... duct=10769

Here is a question. what out  put would you use if you have the choice; a headphone out or a usb output? (assume your mixer have a usb input). I never have the chance to try this.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Well, it all depends on the quality of the DAC on both the laptop or the mixer sound card?
You can't say which is best with out having to compare 2 different hardware?  The quality of the sound will always be determined by the quality of the DAC on the hardware.  The sound in your computer is of course digital processed and what you hear is analogue, so what ever option you wish to take to convert to analogue is good, it's all a question of a good Digital To Analogue (DAC) on the sound card!

Ideally, you wish to choose a card that uses a processor on the card for the conversion, all onboard audio chip will use the cpu/memory resources during the process and that's not recommended.  The creative ZS line uses it's own processor...

So, to really answer your question, what ever fits you best, USB, Firewire, PCI or PCMCIA, get a card that has a GOOD DAC!

With the typical mixers of today, there is no problem with the impedance matching. I have the gain/trim knob on both my mixers in the center range -- a few dB either way -- from my laptop and my M-Audio card.

If you use decent cables and a short run, there should no connector noise problems.

I don't see any reason that a laptop can't sound good. There isn't that much external noise to reject, so I don't buy the filtering arguments in most cases.

Again, I will listen to the two again. But I maintain that the Sigmatel 24-bit sound chip on the Dell is pretty darn good, and noise is not substantially greater than with the USB interface in the Alesis Multimix 8, nor than the M-Audio Audiophile PCI card I have.

I fully agree, that Sigmatel audio chip is very good!  I don't need any ground loop or what ever... This laptop with it's own onboard chip can easely be used to run a show and will offer a superior sound, no need to spend on an external card.

The two reason I decided to use my ZS card was the fact that I had the card which I had bought for my previous laptop and to be able to use the EAX Console software that came with it, now, of course I'm getting an improvement over the onboard chip.

just for fun, I tested the Sigmatel audio chip with Cubase and loaded my VST plugins on my two tracks and saved the files in wave, it worked perfectly and I did managed to get a good sound on the finished mix!!  Now, of course it has it's limitation, it will NOT tolerate some extra gain, keep it around the 0db mark and you'll be ok!