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Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
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Author:  SingALong [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Hi,

New to here and I just posted another thread asking about mixer question. I think it might be better to ask specific question on different threads. I am in the process of building a Karaoke system at my house. The original plan is to merge the Karaoke with my Home Theater system. After a week of reading the posts on this forum, it seems to me that it is not a good idea to directly mix two systems together specially for the mic/vocal. Now I have a Behringer 802 mixer and looking for a external effect processor from Lexicon. The next step for me is to find a proper amplifier. I have been into audiophile for a long time and gradually build my current stereo/surround system. My first question will be the amplifier. Will that be any different requirement on the amplifier? Should I buy a PA specific amp like crown, Peavey or just go buy any two channel amp like Rotel, McIntosh for home audio use? How many channel do I need?

My second question is also related to amp. From reading the post, there are some people set up the way that the music will to Home audio system, but the vocal/mic go to separate amp and speaker. What's the benefit of that? If I want to go for that route, does it mean I only need one channel amp and one speaker for the mic/vocal? or I still need two channels?

For example,
For music:
Laptop-->external sound card--->home audio including amp and speakers
For vocal:
Mic-->mixer/effect-->amp(for mic only)-->speaker(for mic only)

Will this configuration sound strange because of the separation on the music and voice completely?

Question #3, With the budget around $200, any recommendation? I will be looking at the used market to save some money.

Please pardon me if I did not explain my question better. I am still in the learning stage. :)

--Tom
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
SingALong @ Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:44 pm wrote:
Hi,

New to here and I just posted another thread asking about mixer question. I think it might be better to ask specific question on different threads. I am in the process of building a Karaoke system at my house. The original plan is to merge the Karaoke with my Home Theater system. After a week of reading the posts on this forum, it seems to me that it is not a good idea to directly mix two systems together specially for the mic/vocal. Now I have a Behringer 802 mixer and looking for a external effect processor from Lexicon. The next step for me is to find a proper amplifier. I have been into audiophile for a long time and gradually build my current stereo/surround system. My first question will be the amplifier. Will that be any different requirement on the amplifier? Should I buy a PA specific amp like crown, Peavey or just go buy any two channel amp like Rotel, McIntosh for home audio use? How many channel do I need?


Well the amp you get is going to directly be affected by your speaker.  Typically in a regular PA setting you would want your amp to push the 'program' power of your speaker, but being this is in a home setting you can get away with less (although I still know people that blown their speakers - horns mostly from underpowering).  Again you don't want to rely on home theater speakers for singing, yes they will work, but are not designed for the added signal spikes that live vocals can/will add.  Being an audiophile, don't expect audiophile quality from regular PA amps, they are completely different than a standard home theater amp.  Not saying they will sound bad, but not 'audiophile' quality which you aren't going to need for karaoke anyway.  Crown, Peavey, QSC, Yamaha all make great PA amps & should be able to find one in your budget.  You don't reall HAVE to have 2 channels, but most PA amps are 2 channel amps as are mixers & karaoke music is recorded in stereo so you could still benefit from that in the home - clubs not soo much needed.

Quote:
My second question is also related to amp. From reading the post, there are some people set up the way that the music will to Home audio system, but the vocal/mic go to separate amp and speaker. What's the benefit of that? If I want to go for that route, does it mean I only need one channel amp and one speaker for the mic/vocal? or I still need two channels?

For example,
For music:
Laptop-->external sound card--->home audio including amp and speakers
For vocal:
Mic-->mixer/effect-->amp(for mic only)-->speaker(for mic only)

Will this configuration sound strange because of the separation on the music and voice completely?


You can set up a separate amp for your vocals, but you'd still need a separate speaker as well.  Vocals are typically panned center (mono) anyway so that part wouldn't matter.  As far as the strangeness with the music separation, that it might.  Then if you ever wanted to record, you couldn't without putting everything into the mixer anyway.

Quote:
Question #3, With the budget around $200, any recommendation? I will be looking at the used market to save some money.

Please pardon me if I did not explain my question better. I am still in the learning stage. :)

--Tom


Is this the budget for the amp only?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=483048
A little more, but better than anything in it's price range.  You may still want to consider a small pa that you dedicate to karaoke.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=630260

Although since you already have a mixer & effects, an amp & speakers would be all you'd need.
Author:  Micky [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Tom,

I think Lonman gave you some nice explanations but I'll add my opinion...

I also come from the world of HI-Fi; British amp & speakers and VERY expensive cables... But, I would strongly recommend active pa's versus passive and the use of an external amp, a good set of active pa's such has RCF & Electro-Voice will allow you to be in a familiar world. Pa's made out of wood not plastic will also be a better option if you wish to keep that warm sound.  If you ever decide to use your home equipment, please make sure you are using a compressor gate, otherwise you might damage your home speakers.
Author:  mckyj57 [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Everyone has good suggestions.

To offer an alternative that might save you some money to begin with, you could look at using the "Speaker B" output of your home theater amp and connecting a pair of MTX TP112 "DJ" speakers. They are driven just fine by a typical high-end (110w RMS/channel or more) home theater amp, as they have a program power rating of 150w. They sound very good and only run $100-$120 apiece.

You would just use your normal speakers on speaker A for your home theater stuff, then when you want to do karaoke switch to speaker B.

I still use my MTX speakers in exactly this way -- wall-mounted in my big room for the in-the-house practice rig,  connected to my home theater amp (Pioneer VCX120). When we have a party, I just connect the speakers to my PMH3000 powered mixer, which pushes 400W at 4 ohms, and it drives the MTX speakers really well.

I did a number of gigs with them, and they did just fine at smaller places. If you later decide to get a separate amp, they have 1/4" connectors as well as speaker-wire connectors that mate better to a home amp.
Author:  SingALong [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
HI,

Thanks for all your replies. So far, I have the following recommendation from you:
Amp: Tapco Juice J-800
Speaker: RCF & Electro-Voice, MTX TP112.


I think I will need more plan and help from you.

1. First of all, I have one 2 channel amp - McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe to push my main speakers and one 3 channel amp - McCormack HT-3 to push my center channel and rear speakers. All my speakers are B&W 805 bookshelf speakers. I do not see there is any "speaker B" option on my amp, so mckyj57's suggestion might not work.

For my HT setup, I already have 3 speakers on stands in the front. I think it is probably better to buy the type of PA that sit on the floor and face up to avoid lining up another 2 speakers in the front.    :shock:  What do you think?  Do you have the similar issue that you have way too many speakers in the front of your HT/Karaoke room?

2. Although I do have a spare B&W in my closet not being used, I think it is better to buy real PA as you suggest. Any good choice for the one laying down on the floor? My budget will be around $200 ~ $300. I think it is best to have a chance to test-drive the speakers. What kind of store will carry those speakers locally?


Again, as Micky said that we are coming from the world of Hi-Fi, I will be experiencing the whole different aspect of home audio and I am quite excited to get into the Karaoke and maybe later on playing more with mixer and recording ...... Just can't wait to get all the equipments I need.  BTW, I will be using laptop plus external sound card to play all the karaoke songs.

Thanks again,

--Tom
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
$2-300 for amp & speakers generally isn't a good budget for anything worth their salt in sound.  The little system I linked you to earlier is a just a basic little 100 watt mono system, but then again you don't need the mixer part as you mixer & effects already roll circles around that.  Your home theater is even more serious than most that just use a plain 5 channel receiver, which worries me more about pushing karaoke through them at all.

You have to figure that little Tapco amp was $230 by itself.  You may be able to pick up a couple of speakers that are 'ok' for a couple hundred each.  But this is going to push your budget about double what you want to spend already.  
As far as floor wedge speakers, they would work.  They won't sound as full as a standard standing speaker.
Author:  SingALong [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Lonman,

I am sorry that I should have make my statement much clear. I meant to say my budget is about $200 for the amp and another $200 for the speaker.

According to your reply, it seems to me that a standard standing speaker will sound better than a wedge speaker.  I am wondering how people set up the Karaoke speakers along with Home Theater speakers?  


--Tom
Author:  jerry12x [ Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Go old tech. For $50-$100 you can probably get an old peavey 150-300 Watt system.
Lovely warm sound. Sounds as good now as it did 20 years ago.
Bit big for a home system, but if you have the space...
Love the old peaveys warm springline reverb.
Author:  djfrank [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Hit some pawnshops in your area.  The best way to get decent gear and sometimes higher end gear for pennies on the dollar.  Musicians and DJs are generally the sorriest brokest fools in the world and always have to pawn their gear to pay the rent or for coke or weed or whatever the case may be.... Capitalize on their poor life skills.... I have purchased MINT Shure UHF mics at a pawnshop for less than $100 each with cables and gator cases.  They always have TONS of speakers and mixers too.  Even a couple of decent Mackies for less than half of new prices...and they always negotiate off that...
Author:  djfrank [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Hit some pawnshops in your area.  The best way to get decent gear and sometimes higher end gear for pennies on the dollar.  Musicians and DJs are generally the sorriest brokest fools in the world and always have to pawn their gear to pay the rent or for coke or weed or whatever the case may be.... Capitalize on their poor life skills.... I have purchased MINT Shure UHF mics at a pawnshop for less than $100 each with cables and gator cases.  They always have TONS of speakers and mixers too.  Even a couple of decent Mackies for less than half of new prices...and they always negotiate off that...
Author:  Micky [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
SingALong @ Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:48 pm wrote:
Lonman,

I am sorry that I should have make my statement much clear. I meant to say my budget is about $200 for the amp and another $200 for the speaker.

According to your reply, it seems to me that a standard standing speaker will sound better than a wedge speaker.  I am wondering how people set up the Karaoke speakers along with Home Theater speakers?  


--Tom


I'm afraid the budget is a little tight if you wish to have that nice rich sound?  Do you only wish to do karaoke at home with friends and family??? If yes, just get yourself a good mixer like it was suggested and get yourself a pair of active studio monitors like the Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1 or the Behringer Truth, you'll have enough power, the home sound BUT, you'll need a compresser gate, some are very cheap, I'm sure you'll get some help...

I sometime use my Wharfedale with friends and believe me, it works fine wants you know it's well protected!
Author:  Micky [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
djfrank @ Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:19 pm wrote:
Hit some pawnshops in your area.  The best way to get decent gear and sometimes higher end gear for pennies on the dollar.  Musicians and DJs are generally the sorriest brokest fools in the world and always have to pawn their gear to pay the rent or for coke or weed or whatever the case may be.... Capitalize on their poor life skills.... I have purchased MINT Shure UHF mics at a pawnshop for less than $100 each with cables and gator cases.  They always have TONS of speakers and mixers too.  Even a couple of decent Mackies for less than half of new prices...and they always negotiate off that...


Very good advise, you can find some good deals or the rental stores, make them an offer, you'll be surprised!
Author:  Jian [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Micky @ 17th March 2008, 10:00 am wrote:
djfrank @ Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:19 pm wrote:
Hit some pawnshops in your area.  The best way to get decent gear and sometimes higher end gear for pennies on the dollar.  Musicians and DJs are generally the sorriest brokest fools in the world and always have to pawn their gear to pay the rent or for coke or weed or whatever the case may be.... Capitalize on their poor life skills.... I have purchased MINT Shure UHF mics at a pawnshop for less than $100 each with cables and gator cases.  They always have TONS of speakers and mixers too.  Even a couple of decent Mackies for less than half of new prices...and they always negotiate off that...


Very good advise, you can find some good deals or the rental stores, make them an offer, you'll be surprised!


Good only if you know what you are after; I will not recommend  this to a first time buyer.
Author:  SingALong [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Quote:

I'm afraid the budget is a little tight if you wish to have that nice rich sound?  Do you only wish to do karaoke at home with friends and family??? If yes, just get yourself a good mixer like it was suggested and get yourself a pair of active studio monitors like the Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1 or the Behringer Truth, you'll have enough power, the home sound BUT, you'll need a compresser gate, some are very cheap, I'm sure you'll get some help...

I sometime use my Wharfedale with friends and believe me, it works fine wants you know it's well protected!



Does the active studio monitor such as Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1 have the amp built in?

What is the compresser gate? What does it use for? Do I need one?

Thanks,
--Tom
Author:  djfrank [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Active monitors would have their own internal power amp.  

As far as the compressor/gate... you are fine without one for home use.  They are designed to protect your mixers, speakers and amps vs. frequency spikes and such... handy for drunken idiots who like to YELL into your microphones and blow out your system.  I have seen channels blown on mixers from the very thing.
Author:  Lonman [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
SingALong @ Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:07 am wrote:
Quote:

I'm afraid the budget is a little tight if you wish to have that nice rich sound?  Do you only wish to do karaoke at home with friends and family??? If yes, just get yourself a good mixer like it was suggested and get yourself a pair of active studio monitors like the Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1 or the Behringer Truth, you'll have enough power, the home sound BUT, you'll need a compresser gate, some are very cheap, I'm sure you'll get some help...

I sometime use my Wharfedale with friends and believe me, it works fine wants you know it's well protected!



Does the active studio monitor such as Wharfedale Diamond Pro 8.1 have the amp built in?

What is the compresser gate? What does it use for? Do I need one?

Thanks,
--Tom


You won't really need the compressor/gate, they do help.  Basically a compressor smooths out & keeps the volume on a more level pattern, a limiter is something you set & the signal will not get any louder than a specified point.  A gate is something completely not needed at all in karaoke, it basically will keep all noise out - turn off the channel (essentially) until an actual signal that gets to a specified point then will turn on that channel allowing the signal to get to the mixer.  You would use the compressor/limiter more geared on your vocal mics, but you can use them on the overall mix as well.
Author:  SingALong [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Thanks for your replies/explanation on compressor and gate. I think I will proabably need those down the road when I gradually setup my system in the future, but not now.

--Tom
Author:  SingALong [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Hi,

Not sure about the pawnshop since I have never been to one yet. I am looking at local craiglists now for the used gigs.

--Tom

Jian @ Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:43 pm wrote:
Micky @ 17th March 2008, 10:00 am wrote:
djfrank @ Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:19 pm wrote:
Hit some pawnshops in your area.  The best way to get decent gear and sometimes higher end gear for pennies on the dollar.  Musicians and DJs are generally the sorriest brokest fools in the world and always have to pawn their gear to pay the rent or for coke or weed or whatever the case may be.... Capitalize on their poor life skills.... I have purchased MINT Shure UHF mics at a pawnshop for less than $100 each with cables and gator cases.  They always have TONS of speakers and mixers too.  Even a couple of decent Mackies for less than half of new prices...and they always negotiate off that...


Very good advise, you can find some good deals or the rental stores, make them an offer, you'll be surprised!


Good only if you know what you are after; I will not recommend  this to a first time buyer.
Author:  isdreamz [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
Hello everyone,  sorry to hijack your post Tom.  I have the same problem.  I have a 5.1 HT system in my living room and my wife she wants to karaoke on it  :shock:   .  From all the advises above, I've learned that I would need a mixer+amp+karaoke speakers correct?  Im thinking of getting an Amplifier Mixer to drive the karaoke speakers and my yamaha RX-663 will drive my 5.1 HT ...So what will be a good Amplifier Mixer (budget $400) and pair of speakers (budget $400) ...Do I need 2 speakers since I already have 2 fronts ...another 2 will be too much ?

Thanks in advance !

ND
Author:  mckyj57 [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Amplifier choice for Home/party Karaoke system vs Home audio
For the typical living room, you can easily find a powered mixer / speaker combination. That is my recommendation, because then you can take your show to other friend and family events.

The Phonic PowerPod, or some packaged systems like:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=630196

or

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=630219

or even

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=635170
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