Karaoke Forums

I have been contemplating since late last evening how to frame the following discussion?  

In the last week I have found two local venues, both about 3-4 months old that are:
   (a)  large
   (b)  have fabulous in-house sound systems, one has two subs, each the size of a Volkswagen (almost)
   (c)  offer karaoke

One is strictly a "sports bar".  It owns a laptop and hard drive, doesn't accommodate discs, has a house KJ and offers/offered karaoke Tue-Thurs.  They have a substantial dance floor and plenty of pool tables.  At this time, Tues night is Idol night and they're holding a weekly contest, with weekly prizes.  At the contest's end the winner will receive $500.  Their catalog, of which there is only one copy, is 750 pages - two columns of listings per page.  They do not use request slips

The other venue is a sports bar/restaurant, with decent food.  It has karaoke on Wed and has a contracted Kj who has a laptop and also doesn't accommodate discs.  Idol night there will begin next week. Their grand prize is $800.  There is no dance floor, but plenty of pool tables.  Their catalog is 156 pages - two columns wide (about 8 pt type).

On Tuesday night, at the first venue described, there were no more than a dozen people in attendance and I had been the only singer when I had departed at 11:15.  Another singer showed up when I left.  (I never asked about any prize)  While I was told that the crowd begins to arrive at 11:00, I learned yesterday that they have dropped Thurs karaoke as of month-end.  BTW this place is spending lots of $$ on advertising

Last night I went to the second venue, one of the most attractive sports/bar restaurants in the area.  There might have been two dozen people in the place and four singers when I arrived.  When I left at around midnight, there were a few more people in the place, but still just four singers after some of us singers left.  

Questions:

So, for those of you who are convinced that a superior sound system is the one ingredient that will most distinguish a show from a competitor's show with a lesser quality system, please explain how competitors with lesser systems have successful karaoke shows on the same nights as these two venues who have, virtually, no audience and outstanding systems?
   
Are pirated hard drives really the reason we're not as well paid as KJ's used to be, or is the decline in a KJ's value reflective of a decline in public interest in karaoke
(less attendace per show)?

Is it possible that there is more to creating a popular show than having a great sound system along with non-stop karaoke?

Actually ericlater your whole post reminds me of how much luck is involved.

And how lucky I am.

But it takes more time than this sometimes. I started my room from scratch, and it took three months before it started to catch on. And I brought a good half dozen singers along with me. But it still took three months. And a very patient owner, along with a demand for something that wasn't just country and oldies.  If I'd had many of this forum's KJs in my area it may not have happened at all.

And it may not for these rooms either if there are already well attended establishments in the area that singers are happy with.

A larger club requires  more than karaoke. For example we were doing a large club here which has a dance floor bigger than most venues. It has a separate dart and pool rooms. Some of my most precious memories is doing karaoke with a Kodak christmas party. 3-400  partyers... In a larger club they need to avertise for bachelor bachelorette and all kinds of parties. Karaoke alone does not do it.

It takes good food, service, and all the amenities of a large club and proper PR If they were in my area I would schedule a meeting with the food and beverage mngr if they are that large or with the mngr. We have done the Doug Kershaw club here in Greeley but the mngr had an attitude about karaoke. With the singers I have now (10) I would love to get in a larger club now. We would take it over.  It is a different ball game than small venues and takes a more professional and business like approach and most of the mngrs in larger clubs have to be educated about karaoke.

If they have a linear DA 3 kw or so I like to hookup with balanced audio FOH and run our rack. I miss the larger crowds.

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Dusty Rose
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Yep, Bill, as good as I am I've always said I'd rather be lucky than good.  And luck has served me well, so far, in this business and elsewhere.  Without luck, how good I am would really not matter; I'd still be waiting to get my first show!

Both of these new venues have a lot to offer when compared to other places in the area.  Yet, one of them cannot even compete with a little "Coffee House" literally across the street that has shows on Wednesdays.  It's a very small venue with a "smaller" sound system, that is packed out.  But it has Donna for a host (see my link on the thread about Peter) and a lot of hard-core karaoke singers that know each other for years.  

So, I feel more strongly than ever now that it is actually quite easy to trump the sound system as to what draws people to karaoke.  If the system is adequate, it appears that they will come.  On the other hand, if all you have to offer is a good sound system, they could easily end up going elsewhere if there is an "elsewhere" to go!

And please understand that these two new venues have offered me the first opportunity to make such an observation and go beyond the realm of theory.  Now I have seen not one BUT two new places with outstanding sound systems (customized to the room) they are in, which are not drawing karaoke singers.

Ok another thought. I'm going to throw this out there too. If anyone disagrees please give your observations, but this is what I'm seeing around this area...

The karaoke rooms with the longest legs and most consistent crowds do nothing else primarily. They aren't sports bars. They aren't karaoke weeknights and DJs on weekends.

They are known in the area as the place to go for karaoke.

Both these examples sound like they are trying to do something with their slow nights, while not offering karaoke on their busy ones. Karaoke as an afterthought and not the focus. The singers I know don't like that.

The places who offer karaoke as an afterthought, a last-ditch effort to improve their bottom line, never amount to anything. Particularly annoying to me are the owners who do NOT get the value of karaoke...and they sit amidst places that have been very successful for years by correctly utilizing karaoke as their primary form of entertainment. There is quite a number of places in our vicinity that have been turned off by karaoke because they got fast-talked by a pirate who offered nothing more than a foul-mouthed host who had no following...and then they wondered why karaoke didn't work.   Oh man, tired of flogging this expired equine already.

In-house systems seldom fly around here - mostly because they offer poor song selection and an all-too-often tired employee who is getting paid whether there are singers there or not (no stake in the success of the show)....

k

hi, they just opened up a big new club here, big dance floor large bar, it's a rest. by day but on thursday fri. sat. they have a very good band that's packed out....wed. they have karaoke, the sound is pretty good, not great but not bad at all....during karaoke all the singers tend to gather at tables just waiting to sing, when they finish singing they get down someone else gets up, on and on thru the night,  but there's no real talking r having a good time, the club is just too big for that, the people sitting at the bar just listen, no one mingling with anyone else...i'ts boring, i sang 1 song the other night then left.
atmosphere  plays a very big part in it i think, and i'm one of those that believes in a great sound...

Most people who profess that you need a "top of the line" audio system costing thousands of dollars to be a decent KJ are only trying to justify their own expenditures.  The same people will again justify their $3000 speakers by talking down a succesful KJ's GEMINI speakers.

"IF"   all things were equal a TOP OF THE LINE audio system would be prefered by any intelligent person ...of course it would sound better and last longer.

But things in this world are not equal ....... A KJ with a powered mixer and 12" speakers can be MORE succesful and have a BETTER karaoke show than someone who has 3 rolling racks , 4 main 2 subs and a monitor pushing 5000 watts.
I'm sure the KJ with the equipment SOUNDS superior  but being a succesful KJ is more than SOUND alone.  

There are many factors that go into being a succes and a good KJ Host.
and many factors that go into being a BAD host.  ( but being bad takes less effort)  LOL  LMAO

Ellis Island in Vegas is the only public venue I have ever been to that offers karaoke and only karaoke every night of the week.  We have a "private club" here that is dedicated to karaoke and has a daily karaoke show and nothing ese.  It attracts a nice crowd but is quite small.

So, everyone of you who have a successful show are in venues that do only karaoke entertainment seven days a week?  That would be a surprise to me.  Several places here have successful karaoke shows twice a week, and also offer other entertainment on other nights.

PS:  Jamkaraoke, I'm definitely in the same camp as you.  And one of our peers (used to post here) has a couple of great shows locally and swears by his Gemini speakers.  But it is him, not his sound system that makes his show!

PPS Bill, and others,  I feel confident in saying that the owner of the first venue I described (with the in-house hard drive) didn't spend what he has on his sound system and on karaoke specifically as an after thought.

A good sounding system is part of the equation.

The KJ is part of it.  The selection is part of it.  The way the KJ mixes the sound is part of it.   The attitude of the bar/bar patrons/bar owner in general toward karaoke.    The drink prices.    Is karaoke the most important thing on karaoke night.     The age group the bar attracts.    How good is the food.     I've worked in bars that don't even have kitchens.  Nothing but chips and pretzels.     The bar atmosphere.     The bartenders.   The bar reputation.     I know about fancy big venue bars, but i won't go because of the amount of shootings in the area of the bar.    They still get a lot of idiots.

A steady regular KJ that actually knows what they are doing is the key to how successful the karaoke night will be whether it's in a dive or the TRUMP TOWER.   If it's a bartender that has to run the show and mix drinks, you can forget about the show being any kind of a success, unless the bartender is Pamala Anderson in a bikini.  :drool:

All of the above mentioned items can also kill the karaoke crowd very quickly if not done correctly.

It really comes down to the professionalism of the KJ.    

But i have seen a few bars that karaoke just never took off in.   Just wasn't conducive to being a karaoke night.     Few and far between.

One more thing.   I would rather not play in Sports Bars.

Thanks for drawing me back Eric, I had been free of my addiction to this board for almost a year now, but who needed that wagon anyhow...

I am the poor sap that loves his Gemini's and Mackie DFX. I milked almost 5 years out of an Audio2000s karoke mixer amp. I like to think I run a decent show or 2...

Anyway, my thought on these venues is mixed. On one hand, it could be the venue- not the right place. On another hand, it could be the host. On the other hand (for the aliens out there- and what I think), it could just be a matter of time.

As Bill H. said, it took him 3 months to build a room from scratch. I have done it, and that sounds about right. One of the venues you referred to has been open less than 2 months, and just started karaoke in the last few weeks. The other has been around a while, but also just started karaoke. If they keep it consistant, and you return in 3-4 months and see the same results, than there might be a reason to worry. The busier show across the way has been going for almost or just over a year....

I have been doing this long enough to know that reason doesn't always equal results. I have lost shows at bars I thought would be perfect, and had kick butt shows at places I had hoped for 3 weeks from.

Just ride it out and take the lumps....

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welcome back dbk!!!!

I've started some similar threads of late because I am trying to take my show to the "next level" and there is a wealth of knowledge on this board that can be of great help to me and others seeking to learn what I seek.  Meanwhile, I also hope that I can contribute to other's thinking, if even just by playing devil's "advocate".

In regard to defining, identifying and studying the factors and elements that contribute to (a KJ) producing a good show, do any of you agree with me that it's best to restrict our comments to what it is that is within our control as a KJ.

After I take a job, I can only do the best I can do and hope that I get "lucky" and all "else" falls into place.   The following observations only serve to irk me, if for no other reason than I have no control over such matters:

All of the things mentioned that are out of your control, but still control the destiny of the show.  Regardless of what you may think.   You can not over come every negative obstacle that comes your way especially if that's the way the bar owner wants it.   When the number of things against you is larger than the ones going for you the show will die.    Your talent level at that point means nothing.

As for me, in order to succeed the three things I did have control of had to be there: good PA, right selection for the group, and an open personal attitude that treated the singers as equals and got to know them.  Without any of those three, the luck factor (which is a part of it) wouldn't have worked. So you do have some measure of control over things.

If you asked my singers which of the three things I mentioned is the most important to them they'd probably say they need them all! And I would too if I were going out. It's certainly got to be the whole package if you're starting in a new room. A well established host may be able to skate on the PA maybe. But that's a big maybe.

One of the things I pride myself on is a wide range of musical knowledge. I can go with the flow on just about anything from 50's doo wop, to heavy metal, to todays country. The point I am making is you have to be able to go with the crowd...

That goes a long way to controlling the uncontrollables.....

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

The crowd is the least of my worries in the bar, unless they are animals.  In that case i wouldn't have been there in the frist place.

I can control a crowd.   I can build a great crowd if...

The uncontrollables are the bad bartenders and lousy bar owners.   Physical things in the bar/building.    Intangables that have nothing to do with you personally but they can deeply effect the out come of what you are doing.

Keeping a karaoke crowd singing all night and happy won't help me if they can't get a drink.   Been there and done that.   Quit jobs because of it.

When the crowd starts to tell you they aren't coming back because of things totally out of my control...it's time to leave.   You will never tell a bar owner his waitress/bartender sucks.  He won't believe you.    He will blame you for losing the crowd, not them.   If he's drunk or never there, you lose.   In his eyes the most trusted person in the bar is his bartender.    Whether they suck or they are the greatest.    They could be robbing him blind and he won't even know it.  And you think he's going to back you?

To me there are no "maybe's" about it based upon my personal experiences. In this neck of the woods (S Fl) there are many many successful shows that have sound systems which fall short of the criteria most often recommended on this forum.  Also consider that most shows here are in "smaller" venues.  

On the other hand, aside for the two newer/larger venues just mentioned, the KJ with the best sound system around the area (with subs and all), the person who ran the first karaoke show I ever attended (about fifteen years ago) in S Fl, does not have the most number of shows or the best attended shows; far from it.  In fact he loses most shows after a short while!!!

The last reason for "me" losing a job is me.   Have lost too many for things i could not control.  I know a hundred bad KJs.    KJs that kill every place they go near.   They are their worst enemy.    They are the ones with the reputation to "die" for.   If it can be killed they are the ones you want to call.

Give me a bartender that can keep up and i'll show you a nice crowd.

If the bars are new it takes many weeks/months for the word to spread.      New bars are a very tough gig.