Karaoke Forums

I believe the KJs number one job is to make sure the singers can be heard. Good sound is what everybody seems to be striving for, but that goal is elusive and subject to interpretation.

* Some hosts think that they should hide their singers vocal deficiencies in layer upon layer of large-hall reverb. This makes every singer sound the same. It might make the bad singers sound better, but it is boring and ticks off decent singers.

* Some hosts poo-poo effects, saying "real singers don't need them".

* Other hosts keep the vocal down in the mix so the singers don't detract from the music.

I understand that there is discretion here. As a host, I know that some singers don't really want to be heard, so if you turn them up they sing softer or hold the mic farther away. (A monitor speaker helps a lot here.)

So what does make a good mix? Do you vary the effect based on the music type? Have a mic with a pink tape on it and blue tape on it, for female or male singers? Adjust the music up and down first, then the voice?

As a singer, I have to go with Steve from floridakaraoke.com's rant, about the karaoke host whose singers all sound muddy and dry, but the moment the host sings they sound like a star. I have seen this, and it honks me off big time. Most hosts aren't like this, of course, but some are.

Bottom line for me is what I was told in rec.audio.pro.live-sound:

 "Remember that the vocals are your money channel, and that they should be on top of the music."

I especially believe this is true for karaoke. Warts and all, within reason.

I try to get the vocals just over the music - it shouldn't be overpowering where it sounds like someone JUST singing to a background track so the blend has to be there.  I've heard some places where the vocals are so loud that you can't really hear the music.
Effects I like to mix the effects to be just enough so you do not hear them (unless the song calls for it ie some Pink FLoyd, Prince, etc), but would really notice if they weren't there.   It's funny how many people want the overbearing reverb/echo/effects & think it sounds good?  I won't change the main mix, but if they want it I will put it in the monitor only.

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When hosting and mixing for OTHERS I also go for a vocals just over the music mix - SINGER want to be heard and NOTICED..WIthe a little effects probably more than most ...ME on the other hand when I sing at my shows ---I like the vocals mixed well into the music like an original......admittedly it ticks me off sometimes because MOST don't realize I'm singing  LOL ( NOT that I'm that good it just doesn't JUMP out at you like regula Karaoke mixing )  LMAO  LMAO

I agree that the vocals should be on top of the music, but there is a delicate balance too.  You don't want BOOMING vocals either.

Effects should not be noticeable, unless it is something like Pink Floyd ( just like Lonman eluded to).

AS far as the Host sounding better.  Yes, there are a few that purposly make themselves sound better.  But on the other hand, perhaps it could be that the host knows proper mic technique, and they probably have had a LOT of practice  on their system.  And some singers are almost impossible to adjust to a good sound.

Wow there are so many variables to this answer. In general I keep the voices on top.
I mix everyone different depending on their voice and what the style of music calls for.

I will admit that if I have a singer that would make your ears bleed I muddy their voice and try to blend their voice with the music. I don't put them on top of the music.

As for making myself sound better, that's rediculous ! Some singers ask to use my mic. It is kind of comical being that it is the exact same mic they are using.

A KJ's job is to make the singers sound as good as possible. If they like how they sound on your system rather then the competition, they'll be back.

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First of all, and as an aside, Steve from Floridakaroake.com lives in the Ft Lauderdale area.  One of his closest associates is a fellow who runs 18 shows a week with KJ's he picks up along the way and trains with spotty results.  And since the referenced "rant" has been on his website for years and I've never run into Steve at any local show, I'm left wondering what Kj or current show he's referring to?

As to my show, since my wife works with me, my primary responsibility is to adjust the mix.  I do so at my discretion.  I may be wrong, at times, most times i get it done to everyone's enjoyment.

There is nothing I can do with my equipment to help people who hold the mike down by their navels!

I'm all for treating singers equally--the I Love This Bar philosophy.  If someone's voice isn't as great let the crowd put up with it.  It's part of being over 21, that is, being an adult.  As Huey Lewis said, "ain't no living in a perfect world".  It's also interesting that some people who have less than perfect voices like Willie Nelson and Louis Armstrong, still have that human quality that makes it "good music".  I have to wonder if a Willie Nelson or a Louis Armstrong would have their vocals adjusted below the music if they sang in a karaoke bar.  What if you have a singing bartender and their voice is "subpar".   If you mix them under the music, they will notice it, and your career may be on its exit route.  It is a slippery slope when people get treated differently, and after all its only a bar, not Carnegie Hall.  No one will remember Sunday morning what you sang Saturday night, whether you have the voice of an angel or the growl of a devil...

Vox vol, is just one of the many things a KJ need to adjust. Such adjustment depend on the singer vox and the genre of the song. In most case the vox is normally mix a little up front.
Other parameters such as eq, efx and even comp. setting play a very important part in a good karaoke mix. Even the backing music may need to adjusted and eq to fine tune the mix.

I think that a lot of karaoke shows in this area I am from believe in the vocals first music second theory. Maybe it's a matter of taste and they think that since it's karaoke it should be all about the singer. I personally want to be blended in and often find it hard to sing if mostly all I hear is myself over the speakers.

I also think mic technique helps a lot because even if you mix them perfect it won't matter if they don't employ some mic savvy, the vocals will go too loud or too low if they don't adjust the mic distance for different parts of the song.

What happenned to my posts on this topic?

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

Were they in this topic or in the one titled "Have you ever lost your cool with a singer?"   I think this topic was created as an offshoot of that one.

OK...so I am only mildy kooky, and not completely crazy......*WHEW*

That's what happens when I don't access a comp over a weekend and try to catch up on 300+ posts in 2 hours....

ANYWAY....

One of my core beliefs is I LIVE at the mixer. I adjust it from song to song, and singer to singer. Most of the time that consists of just volume shifts, but there are occasions when more is needed.

For sub- par singers, I use a variety of "tricks". These include turning up the music and lowering the vocals, adding more reverb/echo, or simply turning up the stage monitor.

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

dbk - don't feel bad - I've lost myself in posts before too. Many times we start threads under the wrong post or they continue in another. It is easy to get confused.

Back on topic - I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to hide a bad singer in the mix of the music as long as they can still be heard.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I agree about "backing down" vocals when the occassion calls for it.  My main concern is the audience's experience.
  If the singer is screaming and that isn't working, in my opinion, I'll adjust.
  If the singer is straining to hit some of the high notes, I'll adjust around those measures
  If the singer is completely out of tempo with the music, I'll adjust
  If the singer is entirely off-key, I'll adjust

I will, on the other hand, raise the mic volume when
  The notes are getting below the singer's range and help is needed for the vocal to be heard, I'll adjust
  The mic is being held far off, or is being "waved around", I'll adjust as best as I can

EDIT:  I know some of us take exception to adjusting the mix based upon the "quality" of the singer.  Please don't interpret this post to mean that I discriminate and adjust a mix based solely upon voice quality.

Vocals slightly on top of music.  I have a couple of singers I will blend more into the music, just so people don't walk out on them (it's happened).  Some just sxck that bad.

On the topic of mixing singers in general - one size doesn't fit all.  Any KJ who thinks so either has a system that calibrates each singer for them (and if you do, let me know so I can get one), or just doesn't have a feel for the twisties and sliders.  I've got some singers that are so loud, I have to back the volume down (and it sometimes amazes me how much).  Likewise, there are singers who are so quiet, I have to increase the volume to near feedback level.  Some singers like to sing with the mic as an extension of their tongue, while others hold it at bay like it carries the plague.  Some singers, I have to take out almost all lows, and some almost all highs.

As for a KJ purposefully making themselves sound better - I agree there are some scab KJs out there that only do us good ones a favor by giving us something shxtty for singers to compare us to, but I've got another take on that.  

The first time I see a singer, I have absolutely no idea how they're going to sound.  Sometimes it takes a few songs or even a couple of nights in order for me to get the right mix on them.  Some just sound weird or scream, or sing all choppy like, or sing weird songs, or a host of other anomalies.  Now, I have regulars that I set it and forget it because I 'know' their voice.  I start every show off, and depending on the rotation will sing one or two other songs throughout the evening.  I know my voice pretty darn well, so it's no surprise that my mix is going to sound better than some of the others.

New singers can be a challenge I agree. I have so many regulars I sometimes feel spoiled because I know their settings before they start. Of course there are still adjustments to be made because of enviroment, but for the most part I know their songs and voice pretty well.
I ride the amp for new singers never knowing what will happen. One minute they can be at a whisper the next they could be screaming. The same thing goes for songs that are picked that I have never heard before. The song could start very low in volume and I turn my back for one minute, then the chorus starts and the volume is blaring.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I have to back the two "belters" in my room off at the pad or else I get red lights all over the mixer. And way off too. They're unbelievably loud. Both experienced karaoke women... Benetar, Heart, Joplin, Tina Turner singers. Then if I forget the next singer on that mic won't be anything, and it catches me sometimes because I'll look down and the channel fader is where it's supposed to be.

That's where a good compressor with limiter comes into play  :D

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I knew that was coming.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Yeah I only have limiting post mixer.