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Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
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Author:  Odie [ Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
I'm an avid fan of bar karaoke. I enjoy hearing most of the singers with extra emphasis on the word "hearing". I don't mean to sound snotty here, but I can't understand why it seems so difficult for a lot of the KJ's I know of to get a good volume balance for each singer and the karaoke track. I'm not expecting a perfect EQ per singer. Sometimes they say the mic volume can't be boosted any further without feedback. But sometimes it's not that the vocal is too weak but rather the karaoke track is too loud (tracks obviously can vary quite a bit in volume). Anyway, it seems to me that making volume adjustments to accommodate for individual singers is common sense. One volume setting does not fit all. I know it's probably a pain in the butt to do sometimes. Am I wrong about making these assumptions? How conscientious are you guys about the volume?
Author:  Jian [ Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
A very true observation, Don.
I talk to a few KJ about it; thier answers:

she has a weak voice; she should hold the mic closer to the mouth...
This guy like to shout out the song...
don't know why this cd is very loud; can't help it.

They just don't get it; it's the job of the KJ to do all the adjustment.

I am sure those KJs are not member of this forum or any related forums.
Author:  Gryf [ Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
I have several singers I have to bring the track volume down for and boost them to the point of near feedback. Worst part is they sing soft for the verse and then strong for the chorus requiring constant balance attention.

Yes, it's the KJs job to do the balance and make you sound as good as possible and sometimes it's just plain hard to do.
Author:  seattledrizzle [ Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Certain songs I like to have the background turned up, like on Blinded by the Light, so the fill in vocals sound good. But on some songs it's nice to have the background turned down a bit too.

Not knowing alot about karaoke systems, is there an overall volume control as well as individual controls? For example, is there one control that will turn down both the music and the singer, or are these always seperate controls?
Author:  KaraokeJerry [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
I always adjust volume for each singer. I use three mikes fed from a Nissindo mike mixer with separate volume controls for each mike, and this also feeds into one channel of my system mixer with its own volume control.
So I can iso and really blow up a quiet singer when necessary.
What I love is when I blow up the sound for a really timid, very quiet singer, who then decides to scream during an instrumental passage. Owwww.
Author:  knightshow [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
three words Jerry...

COM PRESS OR! heheheh
Author:  supercharged [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
I agree its nice to have everyone mixed even and proper. the problems are several.1. Most KJs are not pro sound guys. every song is recorded at a different level, and every singer sings differently.
The guys who mix bands pretty much have it easy. experenced "pro" singers do not yell over a mic, nor do they whisper when they sing. for the most part "pro" musicians play the same volume from song to song. there things staying constant makes life pretty easy once the night gets going, but it is still a full time job during the show to be constantly keeping everything in check as a night goes on. due to the fact that there are no drastic changes nobody ever even notices...unless the sound guy messes up badly.
A KJ has to keep track of music and vocal levels every song, AND deal with 20 singers and other people constantly coming to them with a request or question. PLUS , they have to get the next song loaded in a player or entered in there computer program. A KJ is playing sound guy while juggling 2 or more other tasks all night long. to expect them to be on top of everything all at the same time all the time is expecting a lot. there will be singers who don't get turned up as soon as they would like. there will be times a track is either too loud or too soft for a while and may not always get cought. If it doesnt get addressed at all the KJ either has no idea what the mix should be like, or doesn't care. One of my biggest peaves with my own "partner" is that he can not here the mix while answering a question, or having a conversation..I ask him all the time "how did you not notice that??", and tell him he needs to focus on more than one thing at a time. He does ok, But im really picky.
Author:  karyoker [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
When a singer is using proper mic tecniques and there are one or two red lights blinking on the compressor the the mic level can be turned up. There are a few singers that it is impossible to set the levels right., esp if you are running high volume. I dont like them because it takes the energy level back to nil. Also if you have to turn the music down if you forget the filler music shatters glass. Riding audio for several singers is not easy. One thing I like about Winamp you can use SqrSoft limiter and the level difference between songs is not that great.
Author:  JerryJames [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Quote:
I am sure those KJs are not member of this forum or any related forums.

They would surely know better.

Quote:
I have several singers I have to bring the track volume down for and boost them to the point of near feedback..


Some singers I trick into singing at the proper level by moving the vocal volume up or down on the monitor. Some strong singers just want to hear themself at an unreal level and some singer will sing softer as you increase thier volume.

My regulars I'll learn what they need and teach them mic management or build there confidence, Or what ever it takes to make my job easier. I also have a group of guys that help do this.
Author:  Lonman [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
jayvan @ Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:55 am wrote:
Quote:
I have several singers I have to bring the track volume down for and boost them to the point of near feedback..


Some singers I trick into singing at the proper level by moving the vocal volume up or down on the monitor. Some strong singers just want to hear themself at an unreal level and some singer will sing softer as you increase thier volume.


Same here. You can sometimes get a weak singer to singer louder if you turn the vocals down in the monitor or a loud singer to back off doing the opposite.
But then some people just don't have good mic technique (as mentioned) & hold their mic down by their chest - some will flat out refuse to hold it close to their mouth. Nothing you can do for these people.
Author:  DangerousDanKaraoke [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Lonman @ Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:42 pm wrote:
But then some people just don't have good mic technique (as mentioned) & hold their mic down by their chest - some will flat out refuse to hold it close to their mouth. Nothing you can do for these people.
More often than not, this is the reason why the mix sometimes is off. Experienced singers have no problem holding the mic directly in front of their mouths. They understand that the KJ is doing the work with the levels. As much as possible I "ride the gain" of the karaoke track *during* the song to insure a consistent sound. Making the singer sound great is my job!

Those who insist on keeping the mic at chest level or arms length? I'll do what I can to boost their gain below the feedback threshold. After that, I start to turn the backing track down until their vocals can be heard. Occasionally I'll go over to the singer mid-song, take their hand with the mic and move it closer to their mouth. Presto! They instantly sound better!

I understand that KJs are doing a million other things during the time when people are singing, but t's a pet peeve for me too when KJs don't at least set music and mic levels for each new singer.
Author:  Big Marc [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Are you expecting too much?
Are you going to different bars with different KJ's, or are you a regular at one or two places. Over time, a good KJ should learn what makes you sound best.

As for me, I like my mike "HOT". That way, I've got more control of the sound by varying the distance between my mouth and the mic. I usually give a tip to the KJ whather they have a jar out or not. IF they won't accept, offer them a drink. You tip your waitressess for meeting your needs, so why not the KJ? Most KJ's I know try really hard to do their job. Alot of them are underpaid staff at the bar you're in. After last call, you get to go home. Not the KJ.

He or she gets to stay and cleanup the bar AND take up the sound equipment. All for your entertainment. So if you have a good KJ out there, go and thank them for all they do. For without them, you'd be stuck at home alone with no audience to share the fun.

Here's to the GOOD KJ's out there keeping it real...
Props to my KJ at Martha's in Wilmington, NC
Author:  karaokemeister [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Best compliment I got at a show?

I was working for a multi-op for a short time.... was using his crappy gear (mostly VocoPro) and the owner of the bar down the street (who also does karaoke) came up to me and told me that I had one of the best mixes he'd heard in a LONG time.

I was thinking - if you think this crap sounds good just wait until you hear the stuff I have at home!
Author:  KaraokeJerry [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
I'm seriously thinking about putting a "How To Use A Microphone" diagram in the front of my books.
By far, the biggest problems I have in adjusting volume/effects for singers come when they just won't hold the danged things right.
I.E.,
Hold it close to the mouth, not your chest or your belly button. Sing straight into it, not over the top (think banana or lollipop). Sing in a comfortable, normal tone (for you). Hold it by the handle; don't cup it with your hands. Let me adjust to you, instead of you adjusting to me.
Author:  seattledrizzle [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Some might be holding the mic at navel level because the last place they sang had the amp up way too high. That happened to me a few weeks ago. I had to hold the mic a foot away from my lips because it was way too high--this with a KJ that's been in the business for awhile.
Author:  Karen K [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
My gosh, no - not expecting too much. If a KJ isn't doing the kinds of adjustment that are SIMPLE to do, and that includes either bringing up mic volume or pulling down the volume of the music, they really have no business calling themselves hosts. This is one of the most rudimentary things a host can do to make for a pleasant singing experience. Of course if a person doesn't identify the problem, they sure aren't going to attempt to fix it...and it's amazing the number that don't. To those people, I say get out the business or take some lessons from someone who knows. You just do a terrible disservice to the singers...and eventually they'll find another show.

This is NOT brain surgery - singer not loud enough, draw the music down until their voice can be heard; if they say the music is too quiet, I suggest that they hold the mic closer, and PRESTO.

Part of this reticence to hold the mic close enough comes from hosts that have cheap mics and don't understand "UNITY" and "GAIN" - a mic that is too hot is not a good thing.

k
Author:  Bri715 [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Big Marc @ Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:18 pm wrote:
As for me, I like my mike "HOT". That way, I've got more control of the sound by varying the distance between my mouth and the mic.


Could not possibly agree more. The last thing I want to do is get all up in a mic like I'm Linda Lovelace. Sure, if I have to do it I will. But IMO the perfect volume setting demands the singer be about 3-6 inches off the mic so that you can modulate as needed.

BTW: My pet peeve is when you get deep into a song and you've got your singing volume right and the KJ starts trying to tweek things and suddenly the mic volume disappears. What an absolute buzzkill.
Author:  Odie [ Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Our local KJ's are great people and in general do a good job. After reading a lot of these comments I'm realizing it's true that some of our singers do not have the best mic techniques. I obviously can't expect miracles with the kind of singer that holds the mic two feet away. ha, ha Yes it would be a good idea to give these singers a basic mic lesson. I'm not sure if our KJ's systems include good compressors. I should recommend that if they don't I guess. Also I now realize there is a lot of multitasking a KJ often must do. That's probably a cause at times for not catching the volume problem quickly when it occurs. Thanks for the input! This isn't an earth shattering problem, but it does get annoying at times! :yes:
Author:  Lonman [ Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
Anyone singing should expect to hold the mic about an inch from their mouth! Anything more than that can be assured of a low music volume with a kj trying to work the vocals into the music - do not be afraid of the mic. It is your friend! If you are singing close to the mic & still do not hear yourself, then either you are not singing loud enough and the kj has to compensate by turning the music down & the vocals up - sometimes resulting in a temporary feedback sitution or you just flat out aren't singing loud enough to cut through the music. I do understand there are kj's that have no knowledge of sound or sound engineering, but i've been to enough places where it isn't always the kj's fault!
Author:  karyoker [ Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Volume Adjustment - Am I Expecting Too Much?
I once was accused by a gals wife that I turned the level down on her mic. I immediately went up grabbed the mic and said test test. The level was so high it about busted everybody's eardrums. Using the same level I gave a lesson in mic tecniques. I try to maintain patience with newbies and teach them. One of my biggest joys is watching a newbie blossom after months of singing. But after awhile I just give up and turn the music down. I hate it because like I said it drags the energy and quality down. It takes 3 good singers to bring it back up. Sometimes even with a big rotation I or my host will sing one of our signature songs to get it going again. Our audience is very karaoke savvy and knows whats going on and helps new singers.
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