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| Is Full pay due to you.... https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15240 |
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| Author: | diafel [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Is Full pay due to you.... |
If you get shut down halfway through the night? I thought I'd take ericlater's suggestion and start a new thread on it. My own take is this: I get paid x amount of dollars for a 4 hour show. There is no "per hour" rate unless we go over 4 hours. Then, of course, it's extra moolah per hour. My show is a "set price" for a maximum 4 hour show. To me, I show up, set up my gear and I get paid my X amount of dollars. If they decide after 15 minutes that they want me to go, then that's fine. I'll go, but I still get my x amount of money. Now, on the other hand, If I am the one to suggest I go early, then I will bite the bullet and pro-rate my price and cut them a deal. That, however, has never happened, and I don't foresee it happening any time soon, bar a family emergency. |
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| Author: | jdmeister [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
As is often said, a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.. |
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| Author: | ericlater [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Hey gang I can't say much now, I'm on the run. The reason I stopped is to suggest that we should consider when responding to diafel if we'd like to add a "yes" or a "no" to our posts as to whether we like to poll the KJ members on whether we, as a group, would like a "membership" policy in regard to this specific question? I'd be for taking the poll. Again it wouldn't necessarily be a vote on an actual policy proposal but on whether we want to develop one for the membership? Perhaps it makes sense to just do the polling as we go along here? Can a poll be created on this thread at this point? I never paid any attention to how polls are done. |
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| Author: | jamkaraoke [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
All questions and arguments can be answered when a KJ initially speaks to a NEW Venue. Instead of a POLL we ( kj community) should create a CHECKLIST of questions and situations to discuss with a new client. SLOW NIGHTS and hosting only 1/2 a show would be one of these PRE HIRE discussions ! |
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| Author: | knightshow [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
I've done the half price thing, and hated it. But I also looked at have the price and saving the gig, knowing full well that we'd be busy again later and still having the gig... VS losing the gig to being inflexible. as for Eric's suggestion... huh? Guess I'm on too many pain meds to get that deep! |
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| Author: | OperaKitty [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
I'm not a KJ, but I get booked as a singer for events, and here's my take on it - If you book a gig, you block out that time for it, and expect to get a certain amount. Yes, you should make it clear in your initial negotiations that the fee you agree on is your MINIMUM. IE: I will come in from 9pm until 2am, (whatever) and you will pay me X amount of dollars for this time. If, for ANY REASON, you decide to cut me off at an earlier time, my minimum of X amount of dollars will be paid. Should you decide to run over that time, the rate is X amount of dollars per hour. What a lot of people forget (both the people who hire you and you yourself on occasion) is that this is a BUSINESS. Once you book time for a gig, if something happens and they stop you early, it's not like you can run to the bar down the street, set up, and make the money you would lose if they were to just pay you for the time you were there. There is this odd thought by the people who hire you that, because what you do is most likely something you enjoy, that you're willing to do it for nothing. |
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| Author: | knightshow [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
and by being a stickler in the mud on an ethics issue, you can quickly become unemployed. ESPECIALLY in a saturated area. If you're willing to work with the owner during slower times, they're more willing to work with you come more successful times. Another way of looking at it... |
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| Author: | jamkaraoke [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
There are no SLOW nights  --- We all know that if you are to build a succesful karaoke show ---You have to have KARAOKE when you advertise it.
If as an owner or KJ you start to take 1/2 pay and start to leave early on slow nights ...thats a downward spiral |
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| Author: | c. staley [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Knightshow said: Quote: and by being a stickler in the mud on an ethics issue, you can quickly become unemployed. ESPECIALLY in a saturated area.
If you're willing to work with the owner during slower times, they're more willing to work with you come more successful times. Another way of looking at it... I'm not against being at all flexible, but there is a limit. Bars that think karaoke is run on a taxi meter and can be paid only for the part they use are no good. Besides, when was the last time a bar owner "tipped you" anything for an exceptionally good night? Never. When times are good, the owner doesn't think of "sharing the wealth" beause you're just "hired help" but when there's a night that sucks, you suddenly will become a "partner" with some sort of vested interest and therefore should absorb some of the costs. It's always a one-way path with them. I just flat out won't do it. If they want to cut my pay, it's my last night period. They are welcome to chump someone else. Yep, I might lose a gig that way but I look at it like this: why work for half pay at a club when there are others that pay full pay? |
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| Author: | knightshow [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
I thought like that too... couldn't get a gig for months due to heavy saturation in my area! |
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| Author: | diafel [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
jdmeister @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:36 am wrote: As is often said, a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.. And the first time it happenned would be the last for me. If they don't pay me I don't come back. Period. Why would I? It's a dangerous precedent to set, allowing them to not pay you your price. knightshow @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:46 am wrote: I thought like that too... couldn't get a gig for months due to heavy saturation in my area!
I guess I'm lucky. I have the opposite problem. And once again, we have the situation where the precendent has been set by others, forcing you to take a cut. Why don't people realize that when you undercut others, you only end up undercutting yourself down the road. You could end up in the same position as another on this board who WORKS for free because the bar owners won't pay for entertainment. As for eric's poll suggestion, I'm with the person who said "huh?". |
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| Author: | Babs [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
It depends on my relationship with the venue and how long I've been with them. There is a difference between a new gig and a gig you've been doing for 5 yrs. There is a difference between a 3 hour gig and a 6 hour gig. If it's a brand new gig the owner needs to understand it takes time to bulid a crowd and to shut down early or just go home on a regular basis will surely detour building a crowd. I would suggest an earlier close up time 1st ,until there are more people. Than extend your gig time as you build your crowd. For instance 9 pm until 12:00 or 8pm - 11:00. Than if you have a crowd negotiate staying time. Now if it's a one time gig that is different too. I expect to be paid the full nut regardless. If they want me to quit early that's fine, but I expect full pay for my time. An exstablished gig: I'll work with the owner as long as it is a reasonable decision. If I start at 9 pm and only have 5 singers all night I don't have a problem closing an hour early (1:00am). It depends on the scenerio. It depends on how many hours I actually am doing. If it is only a 3 hour gig compared to a 6 hour gig it makes a difference. If I'm working 2 nights a week for the same bar and they have a busy night and a slow night you look at it different. I really think it depends on your particular circumstance. Give some examples of different scenerios and I may have a different response to each one. Matt (Knightshow)brought up a good point because of his circumstances which are totally different than Operakitty's. I agree with both of them. |
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| Author: | diafel [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
OperaKitty @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:43 am wrote: What a lot of people forget (both the people who hire you and you yourself on occasion) is that this is a BUSINESS. Once you book time for a gig, if something happens and they stop you early, it's not like you can run to the bar down the street, set up, and make the money you would lose if they were to just pay you for the time you were there. Which is precisely why I have a flat rate, not an hourly rate. It's no different than a contractor coming out to your home do a job at a flat rate. I do the job, I get paid. If you want me to quit halfway through, that's your tough luck. I still hauled out my gear. I still set it up and got it going I still have to tear it down and haul it out. I still have to clean all the mics, books, etc on my down time. It's not hard to figure out: I still get paid. As stated earlier, the first time a bar owner refuses to pay me will be the last time I darken his door. It could also be a potential death penalty for them as well, since the people in this town still work on a handshake and the premise that you should honour your promises. One of the bars in town recently held a show with a cover charge. The cover was supposed to go to the entertainers. When all was said and done, the bar kept the door money and shortchanged them on their negotiated price as well. The word got out around town and what was once a successful venue quickly became a place to hear crickets chirping in the dark. The owners were from "the big city" and just didn't get the small town mentality. They learned the hard way and far too late. Having a flat rate also helps to prevent bar owners from wanting to quit early because they have invested the money. They don't realize that it's GOOD for business because you then become reliable with your karaoke. They just see that they've spent the money so they better get their money's worth. They don't realize that the bonus is that people will know it's there, no matter what. They won't be left wondering if they should leave the warm comfort of their home and venture out down to your venue for karaoke, only to find there is none. |
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| Author: | Cueball [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Here's my take on this... It's a tough call no matter what you decide to do. Most of the KJs in my area work on a Verbal Contract. There are so many of us around (in New York City), that a Bar Owner is NOT willing to sign a written contract. In my experience, I've seen that there are a few out there that will sign, but not many. A large amount of them know that if you don't accept what they are willing to give you, that they will find someone else. Most of these Bars want you to be willing to "work with them." By this, they mean to say, if the place is having a slow night, they expect you to cut the show early (at their demand) and take a cut in pay that night. If you are NOT willing to do that, then it means that you are NOT willing to "work with them," and they will tell you that they've either decided to cancel the Karaoke or they have decided to hire someone else in your place. Now, as far as a written contract goes, even with something in writing (stating your pay, and the length of time and dates that you are to be hosting there), it doesn't guarantee you anything. I have seen one KJ work with a contract, and he seems to only last a these places for 1 - 2 months. One place only payed him half of of fee (on his very 1st show), and then he took them to Small Claims Court. He had to waste an evening out of his schedule to do this, and even tho he won the case, he still never got the money. The place closed down about 2 months later. As Matt also stated, if you become a stickler for too many details, you may not get hired (I'm not saying that you definitely will not get hired). |
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| Author: | Lonman [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
I've never had to shut a show down early due to bartender or owner request - so can't comment to that. The only time I have shut down early is because of power failures. Had one night I was just making my opening statement & boom, transformer blew down the block - pitch black! We got word that the power wouldn't be back on until well after midnight so I left. We get a power failure event every so often. Last time someone plowed into a power pole outside Another time was during a windstorm, power to the club was out for two days. I still got paid for all days not worked. |
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| Author: | diafel [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Lonman @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:35 pm wrote: I've never had to shut a show down early due to bartender or owner request - so can't comment to that. The only time I have shut down early is because of power failures. Had one night I was just making my opening statement & boom, transformer blew down the block - pitch black! We got word that the power wouldn't be back on until well after midnight so I left. We get a power failure event every so often. Last time someone plowed into a power pole outside
Another time was during a windstorm, power to the club was out for two days. I still got paid for all days not worked. Wow! Lucky you! For "acts of god" or things like that, beyond the bar owner's control, I would definitely take the hit and pro-rate. But if they just feel it's too slow, and want to shut down, I still expect my full pay. Great example of a different circumstance Lonman! |
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| Author: | Babs [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Lonman @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:35 pm wrote: I've never had to shut a show down early due to bartender or owner request - so can't comment to that. The only time I have shut down early is because of power failures. Had one night I was just making my opening statement & boom, transformer blew down the block - pitch black! We got word that the power wouldn't be back on until well after midnight so I left. We get a power failure event every so often. Last time someone plowed into a power pole outside
Another time was during a windstorm, power to the club was out for two days. I still got paid for all days not worked. I would have taken less money under these circumstances, but that is the agreement I have with the owner. Like I said before I've been at the same bar for yrs, 3 nights a week, it's give and take. If I work over even 15 minutes I get paid for it. My equipment is setup permanently and I live about a mile from my gig. If there is a power outage I'll give him a break by not charging him. Heck, I'd welcome a night off. 
I actually have worked through 2 power outages. The patrons ended up singing songs together until the power came back on and I did get paid the full amount because I waited till the power was on. |
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| Author: | Babs [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
It comes down to what you have to do to keep a gig you want to keep. Obviously if a bar owner is constantly penny pinching at the expense of your show and time it isn't worth it. |
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| Author: | Lonman [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Babs @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:57 pm wrote: Lonman @ Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:35 pm wrote: I've never had to shut a show down early due to bartender or owner request - so can't comment to that. The only time I have shut down early is because of power failures. Had one night I was just making my opening statement & boom, transformer blew down the block - pitch black! We got word that the power wouldn't be back on until well after midnight so I left. We get a power failure event every so often. Last time someone plowed into a power pole outside Another time was during a windstorm, power to the club was out for two days. I still got paid for all days not worked. I would have taken less money under these circumstances, but that is the agreement I have with the owner. Well I reminded them that I didn't work due to those events, they said, it wasn't my fault. |
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| Author: | diafel [ Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Full pay due to you.... |
Lonman: Can you please clone your venue owners and send them to me? 
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