Karaoke Forums

.... a slow, painful death, and I don't have a way to fix it (so far)


I started this venue several months ago. The reason I got it was that another place ( For Wayde: Waterloo Sue's) closed down after having a successful karaoke show for over 13 years. Many of these people went to the venue ( close by, and VERY similar in style) and requested that they hire me so that the singers would still have their Tuesday night.


Well, as expected, all went magnificently for awhile. However, it started to get sporadic, and in the last month or so it has become abyssmal ( 5 singers last week, and maybe 20 people in the bar).


First thing that comes to mind, of course, is "How did I screw up?" along with "It's the economy, stupid". The thing is, the singers are all still coming to my other venues, so it wasn't me, and they are still out spending money.

So I started asking around. The general consensus was that they just don't feel welcome there - something to do with the staff... That's as close as I could get to it. No one said the staff was rude or anything, it was just....a feeling.


What the hell am I supposed to do with that?


My ego is involved here as well. I have NEVER failed in a venue ( my definition being at least one full successful year. ) This might be the first, as I've only been here a few months.

Another interesting thing: I advertise in the local entertainment mags, listing my venues as well. I also use group texting ( with permission from the textees) and e-mail.

The venue, on the other hand, wants to make money from karaoke, but keep it secret at the same time. They feel that karaoke doesn't really fit the image of the place ( very high end). This leads me to believe that though the staff may not be rude, they may well be snobby and aloof towards these patrons- a very stupid thing to do, but may not be fixable at this point...


Any thoughts or suggestions gratefully accepted.......

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Unfortunately, if the staff are snobs and treat your singers poorly, there is nothing you can do.
What I would like to know is what is wrong with these staff members that have this attitude?
What is wrong with the owner/manager that allows this?
Don't they know that the rich, as well as the poor love to karaoke?
Are they so well off that they can afford to turn away money?

I once worked as staff in a venue that held a weekly karaoke.
There was a shaggy looking leather jacket wearing guy who used to come in and sing an a semi-regular basis. Great voice, too.
He was pretty quiet and kept pretty much to himself.
We ended up having a rather good rapport as time went on and turns out that he's a really nice guy.
Some people kind of brushed him off as not worth much of their time and unfortunately acted rather snobby to him.
I always treat everyone the same, no matter what their perceived status.
Good thing, too.
Turned out that this guy was a multi-millionaire that ended up buying up half the town.
He just loved to karaoke.
Had I been snooty to him, I might have slit my own throat as far as getting any kind of a job or renting a house in this town goes.
Just goes to show, that you should NEVER judge a book by its cover.

The only thing you have to go on is people are saying it's the staff. With that in mind I'd think the only thing you can do is approach that as the problem.

I'd buddy up with some of the staff and nicely let them know people are saying the place in unfriendly. I'd include yourself in that as not to make them defensive. It's a problem for them also. They make their money from tips and if people aren't coming in their pocket books have to be hurting. You might start the conversation by asking them if they know why business has been slow. Just an idea unless you can figure out any other reason why people would not come in.

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

A common mistake made by some owners and staff are they will cater to a certain type or a "higherup"crowd. A good staff can communicate and provide service to all age groups for each day of the week or as the situation demands. When they start playing favorites with their friends or certain types they are running their bread and butter right out the door and their tips will suffer accordingly.

A huge plus is when the owner is a regular singer and understands what the customers and singers want. At the very least the waitresses and bar tenders should learn how to cater to the different crowds at hand. I have seen these situations before and the end result is the owner and others are saying karaoke doesnt work.

I would have a meeting with owner/mngr and simply tell them you are upholding your end but they are failing. Tell them you have a rep and have customers that you cater to and if they cant then Bye....

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I watched a busy sunday die before my eyes, when a new owner came in. He would stand with his arms folded and frown when the majority of customers would be called up to the stage. Sadly we couldn't open the lines of communication with him and eventually he let us go because our packed house dropped to our loyal six. If you have the chance to talk to the owners do so.

On a side note, we have implemented the "Cathy Award"... named after the most enthusiastic member of bar staff we have ever met (she would dance on tables and whoop and cheer for everyone, more so if they weren't the most talented singers), everytime a bar person does something remotely similar we inform them of the award, which tends to be a box of chocolates and that their name goes in our end of year report (a silly list of all the crazy things we've done or seen thoughout the year). In a couple of our venues the staff work really hard to try and win it, which in turn creates a better atmosphere for our customers.

Situation is beyond your control to change. You will not change the owner and the staff and atmosphere and attitudes will not change unless he does. It flows from the top. Start finding yourself another gig----or just bail and let it go and start having a WELL DESERVED NIGHT OFF!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Gotta agree with Kurt. It would be a much more productive, and much less frustrating use of your time to be looking for another gig instead of trying to figure out a way to change the vibe of the bar.

If it were a single person that was the problem you might have a shot, but since it's just the general atmosphere, there is really nothing you can do about it. And even if you did somehow manage to have some success doing that, my guess is the damage has already been done. Like we saw in another recent thread, once a bar has a reputation, it takes a long time for that reputation to change.

If the venue as you is HIGH END you may have to give them a HIGH END SHOW
I am not insulting your show by any means ! You may just have to think outside the normal karaoke box and give this place something UNIQUE ? We all come to understand that the terms KARAOKE has taken on a negative and almost cheapness in the entertainment field. Obviously the STAFF of this place thinks along these lines and intentionally or not transmits these feelings to the customers. The 1st thing you have to do is reach out to your customers and make an appeal to give the place another chance. Then talk to the staff ...maybe there is a reason for the dislike of karoke night ( no tips / awful singers / rude singers ? ) there is always 2 sides to most stories. Then SPARK up your show and advertising ... upclass everything from your attire to the pencils you use for requests. Maybe add some lights ? rent a LARGE screen TV ...... Just some random thoughts
Don't call it KARAOKE NIGHT call it something else??? Idol Night?

Some interesting ideas, but sounds like alot of $$$ to invest in whats probly a losing cause. Is KJ supposed to pony up all the dough by himself? Think the barowner will spring for it?? Not likely. Not reasonalble to expect the KJ to try to do it all when apparently the barowner wont lift a finger to help. And it sounds like the KJ has gone ABOVE and BEYOND already in trying to solve this riddle.

ONLY SO MUCH ONE PERSON CAN DO.

Appears the bar doesnt WANT to do anything to change its atmosphere/attitude. May even be INTENTIONALLY driving karaoke people away to get rid of it completely.

Like I said before. It starts at the top.

And about never having failed in a gig--
Even the most successful know when to cut thier losses and move on. Stepping away at your OWN TIME and on YOUR OWN TERMS IS ALWAYS A POSITIVE THING!!

Nothing to be bummed out about here---youve gone PLENTY above and beyond what is reasonalble. This place simply does not support Karaoke or Karaoke people in general. And I find it very curious that the owner or bar manager has not approached you to try to come up with some new ways to attract custies and get them back as a TEAM EFFORT.

This is a trap I find many KJ's falling into-----providing the advertising, the newpaper ads, internet, myspace, promotions, flyers, etc etc and all kinds of outside effort talking the show up---while the bar wont so much as put a plain old white banner or a sandwhich sign outside saying Karakoe Tuesday Night. Three simple words that can be FREE from the beer company. I fell into this trap once too. Had a 7 night gig in Portland for a few months. Put out sanwhich signs, flyers, poster photos in the bar, mag adds, magazine stories, etc etc. The bar had a big marquee sign in the sky at roadside---but not ONCE did they ever put ANYTHING out saying they had Karaoke. So unless the bar is willing to do thier part from the very start I wont lift a finger to PROVIDE THEM WITH FREE PROMOTION. HAS TO BE A SHARED TEAM EFFORT. IM NOT CAPABLE OF BEING THIER PR AGENT and certainly not as a part-time KJ/employee. They want publicity and promotion--they sure as heell better be joining in the effort. They want to reap the benefit, then they better be putting forth some effort. PR and ADVERTISING are MEASURABLE $$ ITEMS and is not to be provided for free!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Don't beat yourself up over this downturn in business. It is important for the bar to uphold their end of the bargain. That means that they must move outside their comfort zones and relate to all types of individuals.

One thing that came to mind is that the venue must also match up with the clientele that follow you. Sometimes you have to make sure that your venue is compatible with your regulars. I made this mistake once about 4 years ago and my gig only ran for 90 days before I pulled the plug. The bar owner ran off all my regulars by poor service, weak drinks, and his nasty disposition. After doing some investigation with my loyal following I found out it had nothing to do with me and the bar was actually making them go down the street instead. I pulled the plug as I was not going to let my business go down hill by trying to save the gig.

At this point your customers are going elsewhere and the bar is not providing enough of its own customers. The likelihood you are going to get the bar staff to change their way and your customers to come back and give them a chance again are probably gone.

My advice is to start a new gig, make sure the bar and your customers are a good fit and start over.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

OP mentions the owners WANT TO MAKE MONEY with Karaoke but keep it secret at the same time.... Maybe just advertising with a different NAME instead of Karaoke ?
Won't cost much ...

Looking back at all my club failures, the biggest mistake I made in practically every case was hanging on, thinking things would turn around, until I was fired.

It is a much better thing to pull out before that outcome.

Your reputation is at stake here. Plus we all know what's coming up next month. If I were you I'd give my notice, and play it out until the end of the year if they agree to that.

I agree completely with Bills statement

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

This is what confuses me ^

A popular 13 yr old gig moves down the street to a bar very similar in style.

Then you say:



Two things come to mind. If you still want to try to keep this gig because as you said it's only been a couple months I'd have a discussion with the owner about "Does he really want you there?" because the feeling you get about them wanting to keep karaoke a secret. I'd explain either they embrace it or you need to hit the road. There is no reason to stay if you feel like you are being sabotaged. If he wants karaoke to work, lay out what you think needs to happen. Let him know if it continues as is you don'y see how you can be successful.

I wouldn't out rightly blaim the staff to him because it will get back to them. You want the staff working with you not against you. I would try and solicit their help myself before I'd do that.

If the bar owner gives you the sense he isn't going to back you I'd do like others said and get out, but if he is receptive to turning things around I'd give it some time. Maybe he just really doesn't realise he is undermining his own success or really doesn't want you there.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I agree with Bill

Hard to do, but absolutely profound advice. I'll definitely live by it when I get back into the swing of things!

Try to consider this as a learning experience, and not a failure. So many factors are involved in a successful show, and the KJ is just one of them. The owner of my main venue, which I've been at for 8 years now, is kind of "anti-karaoke", even though it is her main money maker. She loves to mention the other entertainment in ads and such, but karaoke is sometimes left out, or an afterthought.

It's taken a lot of hard work to make it successful despite this, but it can be done. The place is very karaoke-friendly, in spite of the owner's "embarassment".

Your situation, however, sounds different. It appears there are too many negative factors working against you.

I also agree with Bill. Your reputation is too important to be associated with "feeling uncomfortable", even if it's not your fault.

First, I want to thank you all for your advice- it's one of the main reasons that I'm here.


Jam: No insult taken, and it would be a good idea, were it not fotr the fact that the singers are already happy with the show, and continue to come to my other venues. Though I always try to find new ways to keep the show fresh, in this case, it would be only to keep the venue staff happy, and would do nothing to help this particular situation. Again, your thoughts ARE appreciated.


Marble: Don't you just love a "Cathy" in the house?! Great addition to any show.


Anyway, after last night, I did have a discussion with the owner, bringing up some of the points made.

Although this IS a business, I also do it because I enjoy it. I am lucky enough to have a bit of a rep, and it affords me some freedom. After bringing up the points in question- in a very nice way- I let the owner know that it may be time to reconsider karaoke there under these conditions. To be blunt, I want out. I'm no longer enjoying myself. Anyway, there will be a phone call shortly. If they wish to advertise, and truly want karaoke there- and show it- I'm willing to try a bit longer. If they don't, I have an offer on the table in Westwood. I told THAT owner that I would be in tomorrow with an answer.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It sounds like you handled it well.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

One bartender on my Wed. show, two each on my weekend shows.

I moved my Wed and Fri show to one of the other seven venues in town and only stayed for 1½ weeks before returning, this was in Feb of this year I think. One of the major reasons I left my home bar was to make a point to the owner, one of the major reasons I came back is because of the bartenders.

I am fortunate that I have the two best head bartenders in town working my shows. They're stable and popular. My Wednesday shows, the one bartender handles them by herself. Not many could do that. Sure some nights, but a night like we had last night. She was busting her xss from bell to bell. Her willingness is one of the reasons she's the best in town. She's personable, pours a good drink, provides superb service, supports and participates in my shows, never rude, and is well liked. The place is a dive, but the two of us have made it into one of the best places (if not the best) for karaoke in our area.

The gal that works with her on Fridays is a huge fan of mine and is totally engaged during the shows as well. Priceless!!!!

I don't do drama and won't work with tenders that breed it. We are there to have fun and if you don't like the fun (my style is a little unconventional), then don't work my shows. Thing is, of the seven bars in town my shows represent three out of the best four money nights any of the bars have, so the bartenders that work 'em - want 'em.

I had one bartender earlier this year react to a joke of mine by picking up my books off the tables and tossing them onstage right under the feet of an approaching singer. After the show I laid into her big time, and told her exactly that - you don't like working my shows - don't!!! I've established a rare freedom to do my shows as I see fit. I have control. I've earned it. This gal lasted two weeks longer at this place and resurfaced as the #2 at my Saturday gigs. Her tune has changed dramatically.

The bar staff is one of the most important elements of any show. Without them I can't do what I'm paid to do - sell alcohol. I don't tip the staff from my show take, but when I'm out and about on the town on the nights I don't gig I'll tip them 200-300% of my tab. It's so important from a PR standpoint to give back, not only to your supporters (not all of whom should be singers), but to the staff as well. Scrub each other's backs. If you don't have a good rapport with your bartenders, you probably are pxssing against the wind to begin with.

Yes your patrons have to feel comfortable. No drama, friendly rapport between the KJ and bar, and friendly interaction with the crowd. I've seen more KJs come and go from my town, but somehow my shows just keep on ticking. People try to imitate my style, they borrow elements of my show, but a good act is tough to follow.

Cha!!!

Well, after a long phone conversation, the owner basically said that he didn't want to promote karaoke in association with the venue, but wished me to continue. I politely declined, and will be starting the new venue after the holidays. I will relax on Tuesdays until then...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."