Karaoke Forums

I pulled the plug on my Friday gig tonight.

We were trying a new rig tonight, with lighter speakers and a new eq setup. It was lacking in bass a bit, I will admit, compared to the 1000w and 130 pounds worth of 15" wood speakers we had been using. And I was pretty much deciding to go back to the previous speakers next week. Nonetheless people were having a good time. 15-20 singers, place packed, people dancing to every karaoke song. I got there early to help set up because of the new rig, and left about 11pm.

I came back at 1am to help break down the new stuff, and my host told me he had been roughed up by a woman who was complaining all night, "where's the bass". She used her 200 pounds to push him over against the sidelined pool table. She was the only one complaining. He is kind of small, but he is a wiry construction worker by trade and could of course have wiped the floor with her. He did the smart thing and didn't get into it with her, but asked the bartender to 86 the woman. She wouldn't.

I told him he should have pulled the plug right then and there and started packing. I think the reason he didn't is that he was worried about us being paid (and he maybe doesn't understand I would pay him anyway). He needs the money, I know, and I imagine that was his worry.

I went to the bar manager and told her that when we said someone was to be tossed, they had to be tossed. She said no, so I said we were out of there.

What does everyone do either 1) up front in a talk with the owner or 2) in stopping work in a situation like that? I didn't book this gig, which probably was a mistake. I should have gone over terms and conditions with the manager when we took the gig on. I know I will be discussing this issue with them up front from now on.

It will be no trouble to get another Friday night -- I am actually kind of glad to lose this one in some ways.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

If possible I ilke to speak with the bartender and manager/owner together when we discuss things like 86ing people and cutting off the out of hand drunks, etc. I have to know that we're all on the same page. Nothin worse than a drunk patron screaming and spitting in your face about low sound, mic volume etc. and when you signal the bartender to rid the problem they either ignore you or stare at you like what am I supposed to do.

I too have lost gigs because of this in the past but now try to establish ground rules before my first show. It doesnt happen alot but it sure is nice to know someone has got your back

You shouldn't have had to talk this one through up front. It's just common bar sense. If anyone lays a hand on an employee they're outa there.

If they failed to do so then you had no choice except to bail on the gig. But I suspect that there's more to this story than you have been told.

This particular singer was used to getting steak and you decided to serve hamburger instead. You received negative feedback on your attempt to downsize your equipment and you decided to take it out on the customer instead of apologizing and telling her that the BIG speakers will be back next week.

Classic example of bait & switch.

In a situation like that, in todays world, most people will just keep their disappointments to themselves to avoid a confrontation; especially if they happen to be friends or loyal customers. God forbid, someone actually speaks their mind and tells the truth. The KJ's first response to anything negative is to pack up his gear and go home.

Let me finish by saying that no one should be putting their hands on anyone else in this situation. Violence never solves anything.

ONE MORE EDIT:

It seems to me that you over reacted to the situation and you have now punished all of those other singers that will miss your show in the following weeks because you wanted to teach the bar owner a lesson. You have cut off your nose to spite your face. It's easy to decide what you would do after the fact but I think the best thing to do would have been to tell the unhappy singer that she would NOT be allowed to sing any longer for the evening since she had gotten out of line with the KJ. If I didn't like the sound at a particular gig, I wouldn't WANT to sing there, but maybe this lady was just looking to be a problem that night. I don't know. I wasn't there.

Maybe a little white lie would have settled everything down as well. Start off the show with an apology about your main speakers being in the shop and you are substituting your back up speakers for the evening until they are repaired?

I went to a new show a few weeks ago and they had a BOSE stick set up with a sub woofer on the floor. It was very good for singing. I could hear the music very well and I could hear myself singing and the mix seemed very nice. Last week I went back to the same place and they were using two 15 inch Radio Shack PA speakers instead of the BOSE set up. If you were sitting at the bar listening, everything sounded fine but if you were singing, you could barely hear the music, which made singing a bit awkward, at least for me. I didn't say anything to the KJ but I wasn't happy about the change. If I had complained about it and the KJ shut down the show over it; I would have thought that she was being VERY IMMATURE. Sometimes, the customer is right.

You are going to encounter these types in bar situations occasionally. It would not be a bad idea to discuss the proceedure for dealing with unruly customers with the bar owner and the bartender. In over 9 years of doing multiple bars it has usually been the bar's responsibility to deal with these folks and determine if they are cut off and asked to leave for the night or 86'd. Normally they only 86 someone for fairly serious infractions or repeated behavior issues. In any event it has never been my responsibility to deal with it and most bars have proceedures they have to go through to avoid legal issues.

I don't think it is my place to be in the decision making process with regard to who does or does not get 86'd, that is the bars issue. I would never just pull the plug because one customer on that particular night was giving me a bad time and the bar was not dealing with it. That would not be fair to the other customers that were there to have a good time. I would however discuss the problem with the owner or manager the next day and try to establish a proceedure for dealing with this type of behavior in a way that make sense for the bar and your KJ.

Now if their way of dealing with the situation is not to deal with it then I would tell them that it is time for me to move on.

I'm thinking that your KJ could have handled this lady fairly easily by explaining that the lack of bass was due to trying a different system and that the other system would probably be back in place next week. Your KJ may or may not have handled her complaints correctly and it got out of hand. Is suspect their is more to this story than he is telling you. There normally is...

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

No, not really. I asked a couple of people for their version, which matched his. I saw the people, and they were drunk and out of control by the time I got there.

He was assaulted. The bar owner didn't toss the customer. Either I trust my totally sober KJ who has done dozens of shows for me with no trouble, or the behavior of a drunk. It is an easy choice for me.

The point to me is the basic rule that if we are abused, or our equipment is abused, we can eject the customer. I had never done that before and hope I would never have to again. But you can't allow people to get physical and intimidate you. It just gets worse in my experience if you do.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

It sounds like your host didn't know what he was doing. All he had to do when she was complaining was to agree that there was no bass. How could she get mad about being right? I'm sure he will get better with experience however, telling the bartender or owner what to do in their own bar is right over the top of acceptable IMHO.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

It doesn't matter if it was a "bait & switch" as you call it. It does not excuse wnybody to lay hands on a host or anyone else. That person should have been turfed immediately, no questions asked.

From time to time companies will change things up. This is not necessarily "switch & bait". Sometimes changes work (seat belts), sometimes they don't (New Coke). I don't think anyone physically assaulted the CEO of Coca-Cola.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

couldnt agree more weedy...I have kj'ed and have banned someone from SINGING but never once suggested they be banned from the bar...what an ego

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Thanks, Tim. Exactly as I see it. We were trying something new, and it wasn't working. I heard the yells from the woman, and on listening I sort of agreed with her as I said up front. We were planning on switching back next week despite the extra weight and load time. No one else complained, and all she did was yell from the corner. We never got a complaint we could address while I was there.

A physical assault to me means ejection. If it doesn't, we won't work there. Period.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I may have confused things by saying "86" when I really meant tossed for the night.


Even if they were physically assaulting you or damaging equipment?


That is what essentially happened. They said they wouldn't do it based on my guy's word, and that means to me that we are out of there.


I am not sure he knew exactly what I was thinking. I had said that I thought we might consider going back, but I hadn't made a definite decision that was communicated to him.

And I don't personally think you can sanely and logically explain something to a drunk. He was assaulted, not beseeched with elegant prose in complaint.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I feel lucky, I guess. All my owners will honor my wishes to the letter. Recently, I had to "ban" a particular lady from my shows, all of them, because she was making the others angry, whenever she attended. She is a total nuisance when she is there, and was making people want to NOT come and sing. I cannot have one person affect the entire show, and jeapordize my employment. She makes the "wives" want to kick her butt, and makes the husbands very nervous by having the guys buy her drinks in turn for sexual favors or drugs. However, I am not saying to the bars to ban her from the bar, just from my shows, and all of the owners have told me that I have total say in the matter.

In your case, I agree that it is time to walk out the door, just to protect your investment. If an owner/manager cannot protect his "investment" (you and the hires), then that is a place you don't want to be.

I guess my point was that the situation was allowed to escalate to the point where this lady became physical. Where the KJ lost it was in the verbal exchange and needs to learn how to deal with these folks. There had to be something he said to get her to the point of physical harm. Generally folks don't harm someone physically unless provoked. I know you have to trust your KJ but you also have to read between the lines a bit as it takes two to Tango so to speak. My instincts say that while your KJ may generally be technically proficient and a crowd pleaser he may need some work in with diplomacy when under fire and needs to develop some skills in dealing with difficult customers.

Once she got physical he should have shut down the music temporarily to diffuse the situation and then insisted that the bartender deal with the unruly customer, and if she did not, the show would not be restarted until she did. This puts the ball in her court and now she has to deal with it.

Normally when a bartender is faced with losing mega tips for the evening and realize that the show will not go on until they deal with it will generally see the situation for what it is and take care of it. If she does not deal with it then the loss of revenue for the bar and herself is directly on her shoulders and not his.

A bit of patience during this time frame is the key. When the music is turned off and everything has come to a standstill they only have about 15-20 minutes to deal with it or lose their crowd. Either way it diffuses the situation.

We do the same thing when or if a bar fight takes place, the music goes off and does not get turned on until this situation is dealt with.

If the bar has any problem with your KJ shutting down the music until something is done then I would be the first one to say that a change in venue is the correct course of action to take.

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Given the circumstances, and the fact that others have verified the facts, I'd be out of there. Nobody gets to treat me or my hosts like that. I guess I'm lucky that any time a situation like that happens, the offender is IMMEDIATELY escorted out the door. It's not about "egos". I also don't think its something that has to be "negotiated" with the owner/manager. It's just common sense. If the bartender/manager/whatever doesn't see it that way, get out and get a better gig.

Flipper, you are incorrect when you say something had to provoke her (ot the host said something to provoke her) to be physical. Having been in policing for many years and doing karaoke, I know for a fact that some people can be just plain belligerent and will bully to get their way. Whether they are inebreated or mentally ill, or just their upbringing. People like this should not (and at my shows, will not) be tolerated.

I completely agree when people like this start their crap (and that is what it is), you shut down. Once this happens, it won't take long for things to get right.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Having worked in the bar business for many years, I have come across many people over the years who just seem to be looking for a fight.
They do not need to be provoked. They find find something, even if it's just that you looked the wrong way or didn't pay attention to them as quickly as they liked.
If the person is looking for a fight, they will eventually get it it, no matter what you do or say.
These people tend to pick a target when they walk in a room and it tends to be someone working as thay cannot escape. Regular patrons can leave. Bar employees or entertainment cannot.
Unfortunately your host was that night's target.
How I would have handled it was exactly as Flipper said, shut down the music etc.
However, as this didn't happen because your host was not aware he had the authority to do that, the next step I would have taken would be to speak to the bar owner the next day and establish a clear policy.
Because one wasn't already in place, I would have let this one slide.
Water under the bridge, so to speak.
If an agreement could not be worked out satisfactorily, THAT is the point where I would pull my show.
In any case, you were right to stand up and protect your host.
Those who put the blame the host were obviously not there and cannot say.

No, but I WANTED to! !

Seriously... If the kj was assaulted, then the customer goes bye-bye... if the bar says "no", then the gig is gone in my opinion. Especially with customers backing the KJ's story.

If they DON'T eject that unruly customer, then it will only give the impression it's okay to get bossy with the kj, and nothing will be done about it. As of right now, only the kj got pushed... what's next, a serious slam up against the wall followed up by a right hook? them messing with the equipment?

While I don't agree with the switching of equipment WITHOUT THE MAIN OWNER onsite to verify it was going to work, that doesn't justify the abuse of the employee!

Here is what I get from this.

1. I am right to quit the gig if the bar won't toss a customer for the night based on our testimony alone. This was our 14th gig (10th by that host) at the place, and we had never had trouble of any kind before, so it isn't like we were capriciously doing this on a regular basis.

2. We should try and defuse complaints like this. I will talk with my host about it. Perhaps I should have gone over to the corner responding to yelled complaints of "where's the bass". She had only yelled it a couple-few times that I had heard before I left one hour into the gig. Talking to her seems like a hard thing to do, as it was a drunk non-singer at a non-singing table, one who didn't come up and talk to us. And not a regular, either, at least since September.

3. I should discuss this with the manager of the place before I take the gig, to make sure they know where we are coming from. We want to protect the host first and the equipment second. If they won't back us up, we don't want to be there and we should establish it up front.

--

I didn't intend this thread to be about the validity of the unruly customer's complaint. We had a 15" subwoofer with 500w going to it. It shook the place, and you could hear it across the street. Because it was on the floor and not on sticks, it didn't have the chest-thumping kick of the two 15" speakers with 1000w going to it. But it wasn't like a pair of underpowered 12" speakers, and this is a small bar. It was more than enough for a karaoke gig, but probably not enough for a DJ gig. I feel no need to apologize for changing the rig, as we are not a DJ. We were trying something new, and 95% of the people were having a blast. The complaining woman herself was dancing until 2am, and she was the only one who complained.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The Wednesday show I replaced had 2 subs. I do the show with 2 Mackie SM450s. Although I own the matching powered subs, there was no way I was going to haul them in to a bar week after week for what I was being paid. (My private parties pay be 3-4 times as much and get full gear including lighting.) None of the customers said a word to me about it, but the bar manager did. And I told the manager basically the same thing. In fact, I run my karaoke tracks in mono rather than stereo...it actually sounds better in the bar!You never know who knows who. Maybe this woman has a lot of family or friends who also patronize the bar...or she's a regular there multiple nights during the week. Bar owners tend to be tolerant of such behavior understanding what alcohol does looking at the act itself vs. the potential revenue lost. Your KJ got pushed over a pool table? Unacceptable behavior for sure, but no punches thrown, no gear damaged, the show wasn't affected for the other patrons. I can understand why she did not 86 this customer..As for pulling the plug on the show altogether, yes it seems like you are WAY overreacting. The KJ should have diffused the situation by walking away rather than engaging with this customer. And if only ONE person complained about the lack of bass? No way I would haul back in all my heavy gear again. If anyone else asks about it, tell them this is your new rig! It wasn't the bar, it was your KJ who couldn't handle the situation. Maybe I would reassign him to another gig and have someone else take over this venue. The 2 factors I look at are: do I feel I am physically in danger. I don't mean being pushed or some loud mouth spouting insults at me. And most importantly, is it affecting the show. If someone if up on stage creating a ruckus and impeding the other singers then yes, I'll get on the mic and get security to the stage. But as much as possible I try to diffuse these situations on my own. Granted I'm 6'6" and 300#, so most people don't try to physically engage with me.

But last Wednesday the wireless mics kept "disappearing" into the crowd and were only returned when I called for them to be returned. (It was Jagermeister night, no wonder!) But about 15 minutes before my show's scheduled end, someone in the crowd thought it would be funny to toss the mic back onto the stage where it landed on the floor. I immediately pulled the plug on the show. Had this happened earlier in the evening, I might have instead had the perpetrater 86ed instead and refused to go on with the show until he was. Simply because that ruins EVERYONE'S fun and also sets a bad example of what people could get away with.

Again, doesn't sound like this tussle was serious or affected the show.

_________________
[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

I don't think he overreacted at all... I know how to defend myself, but I can tell you the MOMENT I get abused at a show like that, CLICK the sound goes off... and I would IMMEDIATELY insist that biyatch get ejected... or I pack it all up!