Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: what is a "fair" rotation?

I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible

Quote:

I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible

So, you have had the room singing and paying for drinks all night. Soemoen new comes in later and they get to sing really soon? Above those paying for drinks all night?

This is where it becoems tricky.

I am a newbie here, so forgive me if this question has been beat to death already!!

I work in a very busy club with 100 people in the club on a bad night and over 300 on a good night. I generally have well over an hour's worth of slips at all times.

Needless to say, I understand that whatever order I put people in, someone will complain. I have tried straight order: when a slip comes in, it goes right to the end of the line. If someone gives me multiple slips, they get put together, and the extra slips go to the back when that person sings.

With this rotation, when latecomers come in an hour into the show, they look through the book, and submit some slips. In between the time they submit their slips, several people have sung and have another slip in. So, the latecomers hear a few people sing twice before they get to sing. Ok... it is truly "fair", but it also looks unfair.

Also, the latecomers are not likely to stick around if it looks like they won't get to sing in a long while. Once someone has sung once... they are willing to stick around a bit more?

So, I started running a "two pile" system, with a current round pile and a next round pile. When someone gives me a slip, I add their slips to the end of the current round pile, or along with the rest of their slips if they already have slips in. When someone sings, their slips go to the end of the second pile. When I reach the end of the first pile, I start on the second pile.

This is very favorable to latecomers, but it also ticks off the folks who came half hour early to get their slips in. I think this is too severely in favor of latecomers, but... I'm not sure how to modify it.

Any suggestions? What works for you?

Thanks!
John the Revelator

Nlouch @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:04 am wrote:

Quote:

I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible

Just because someone comes in late does not make them unimportant to the ones that have been there all night. Only difference is they may only get one song compared to the others. Around here we have a LOT of graveyard shifts that don't even get off of work until later. Are they not allowed to party & have fun with the rest of everyone? I got one group of around 10 that don't even get off work until 10:30-11 each night, but they come in & their tab at the end of the night is usually substantially more than some that have been there all night.
As long as people understand the rotation & know this is how it works & you do not stray from it, there are very few - if any complaints.

Lonman @ January 14th 2009, 1:39 pm wrote:

Nlouch @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:04 am wrote:

Quote:

I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible

If someone who has been in the bar all night comes up to you at 11:30PM and asks to sing again right away because they have to leave because they have to get up early for work, you tell them to come back again some other time and that you can't bump them up. However, If someone walks in at 11:30PM because of their work obligations, they get special treatment and don't have to wait for an entire rotation to sing their first song. Seems very unfair to me. The people who get there early have to follow the rules while the people who get there late get preferential treatment. The people who get there early have to leave early to get a good night's sleep for their jobs and the people who get there late, get there late because they have been at their jobs.

As I've stated many times before, If a singer walks in and there are "X" amount of singers in the bar, that new singer should have to hear every singer before he or she gets to sing, regardless of how many times the other singers have already sung. Once you finish singing a song, you immediately should be placed at the back of the line and NO ONE should be put in front of you. EVERY new singer should be placed at the end of the line. If everyone who has been in the bar all night has to wait an entire rotation to sing another song, so should the person who just walked in the door. If my job precludes me from staying for the last hour and a half of the show, why should the guy who can't get there for the first hour and a half of the show get special treatment if I don't get special treatment because I have to leave early for MY JOB??

I don't know if it is fair, but here is what I do.

I have CompuHost set to show only the next four singers on the marquee. When the rotation is less than 10 singers, new singers go at the end. When the rotation is more than 10 singers, they go in at space 5 or 6, interleaved with current singers from that point. That way nobody gets "bumped" from the marquee.

Author:	JohnTheRevelator [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:27 am ]
Post subject:	what is a "fair" rotation?
I am a newbie here, so forgive me if this question has been beat to death already!! I work in a very busy club with 100 people in the club on a bad night and over 300 on a good night. I generally have well over an hour's worth of slips at all times. Needless to say, I understand that whatever order I put people in, someone will complain. I have tried straight order: when a slip comes in, it goes right to the end of the line. If someone gives me multiple slips, they get put together, and the extra slips go to the back when that person sings. With this rotation, when latecomers come in an hour into the show, they look through the book, and submit some slips. In between the time they submit their slips, several people have sung and have another slip in. So, the latecomers hear a few people sing twice before they get to sing. Ok... it is truly "fair", but it also looks unfair. Also, the latecomers are not likely to stick around if it looks like they won't get to sing in a long while. Once someone has sung once... they are willing to stick around a bit more? So, I started running a "two pile" system, with a current round pile and a next round pile. When someone gives me a slip, I add their slips to the end of the current round pile, or along with the rest of their slips if they already have slips in. When someone sings, their slips go to the end of the second pile. When I reach the end of the first pile, I start on the second pile. This is very favorable to latecomers, but it also ticks off the folks who came half hour early to get their slips in. I think this is too severely in favor of latecomers, but... I'm not sure how to modify it. Any suggestions? What works for you? Thanks! John the Revelator

Author:	Nlouch [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
OK, I personally don't use slips to manage my rotation but how about this... Get a credit card sized piece of plastic and call it "Rotation marker" - and put it in the queue. When SingerA puts his slip in, it goes behind the rotation marker. As does SingerB - SingerM. So really nothing has changed from what you're doing except there's a pointless bit of plastic there... But oh no, here comes SingerP halfway through the night with a slip... There's already a queue. Where is fair to slip him into the rotation? At the rotation marker?

Author:	Lonman [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
A fair rotation to me is getting people up in a timely manner, making sure nobody sings more than once per round or twice before anybody else.

Author:	diafel [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
I put myself in the rotation and if I have enough singers, I don't sing. However, I use myself as the marker for the start of the round, even if I don't sing. New singers go to the end of the line in the rotation. I will use my discretion as to when to end the rotation and start a new round. I find my way works for me and my singers seem to think it's fair as well.

Author:	Nlouch [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
Obviously what I said above - is open to being manipulated as needs be. I think rotation is usually best managed by a set of ideas (or rules) but also on-the-spot decisions based upon circumstance.

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Author:	knightshow [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
I was really taken with the "Whiteboard" or chalkboard kind of rotation... it's basically a line rotation, but this way, people see exactly where they are, how many people are in front of them, etc. Some people use the board to also put a dash next to their name, some don't. Ex: Thomas - SC8114-10 Betty ---- BS9111-01 Jonas ---- PI001-01 etc. Whenever someone is called, the KJ erases the name of the singer once they start. Then when the singer finishes, they're free to sign up again. At the bottom. However, while that singer is singing, if it's a busy night, then you have people signing up on the board... a rotation of 14 or so could rapidly turn into 25 or more! You still use slips or a sheet for the song info for those that don't want to do that ----- song number.

Author:	4003fg [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible, and diafel mentioned a key aspect of this: knowing when to start a new round, which for me seems to be after the first 10-12 singers.

Author:	jamkaraoke [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
John - There is no right ANSWER to your question... If I "assume" that with a LARGE club like yours - 100+ on a BAD night that your show is 100% non stop karaoke? I still prefer the SING ONE BRING ONE method. Singers sign up and are put in a rotation based on when they sign up and the list keeps growing with everon who submits a slip. When singer "A" is called to sing they give you another slip which is put at the end of the current List/rotation. The list grows and the ROTATION is constantly changing based on who signs up and WHEN. With this rotation BOB does NOT follow MARY every round it all depends on who signs up in bewteen their songs ... SEE? It's by FAR the fairest way to handle EVERYONE SOME people feel that if they give you 5 slips at 9PM they should get to sing those 5 songs before someone who gives you a slip at 11:30PM ? Can't argue the thinking it ..BUT IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY

Author:	Nlouch [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
Quote: I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible So, you have had the room singing and paying for drinks all night. Soemoen new comes in later and they get to sing really soon? Above those paying for drinks all night? This is where it becoems tricky.

Author:	mckyj57 [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
I don't know if it is fair, but here is what I do. I have CompuHost set to show only the next four singers on the marquee. When the rotation is less than 10 singers, new singers go at the end. When the rotation is more than 10 singers, they go in at space 5 or 6, interleaved with current singers from that point. That way nobody gets "bumped" from the marquee.

Author:	kameragurl [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
When I get 10 singers, I go 1-10. When I get more then I do the rotation differently so that I keep both 1-10 and the new singers that come in.

Author:	Lonman [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
Nlouch @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:04 am wrote: Quote: I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible So, you have had the room singing and paying for drinks all night. Soemoen new comes in later and they get to sing really soon? Above those paying for drinks all night? This is where it becoems tricky. Just because someone comes in late does not make them unimportant to the ones that have been there all night. Only difference is they may only get one song compared to the others. Around here we have a LOT of graveyard shifts that don't even get off of work until later. Are they not allowed to party & have fun with the rest of everyone? I got one group of around 10 that don't even get off work until 10:30-11 each night, but they come in & their tab at the end of the night is usually substantially more than some that have been there all night. As long as people understand the rotation & know this is how it works & you do not stray from it, there are very few - if any complaints.

Author:	Alex [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
JohnTheRevelator @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:27 am wrote: I am a newbie here, so forgive me if this question has been beat to death already!! I work in a very busy club with 100 people in the club on a bad night and over 300 on a good night. I generally have well over an hour's worth of slips at all times. Needless to say, I understand that whatever order I put people in, someone will complain. I have tried straight order: when a slip comes in, it goes right to the end of the line. If someone gives me multiple slips, they get put together, and the extra slips go to the back when that person sings. With this rotation, when latecomers come in an hour into the show, they look through the book, and submit some slips. In between the time they submit their slips, several people have sung and have another slip in. So, the latecomers hear a few people sing twice before they get to sing. Ok... it is truly "fair", but it also looks unfair. Also, the latecomers are not likely to stick around if it looks like they won't get to sing in a long while. Once someone has sung once... they are willing to stick around a bit more? So, I started running a "two pile" system, with a current round pile and a next round pile. When someone gives me a slip, I add their slips to the end of the current round pile, or along with the rest of their slips if they already have slips in. When someone sings, their slips go to the end of the second pile. When I reach the end of the first pile, I start on the second pile. This is very favorable to latecomers, but it also ticks off the folks who came half hour early to get their slips in. I think this is too severely in favor of latecomers, but... I'm not sure how to modify it. Any suggestions? What works for you? Thanks! John the Revelator I use your "2 piles"-system, only computer based. The only thing I don't do (see Mcky), I too show 4 upcoming singers on the screen. If my name is in place 4 (rotation marker, doesn't mean I'm singing), they go in the new rotation in the order 3 old singers, one new. Once the new rotation starts, they go to the end again. I do that exception, because I think it's just not fair, that someone walks in and puts in a song request right at the end of the rotation and sings next right away. Even though, it is probably fair and his/her luck of putting the song request in at the right time, I feel like they have to wait at least a little bit. This is all explained to the "T" in my song book and every one in the venue knows exactly, how it works. So far, I had no complains.

Author:	BruceFan4Life [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
Lonman @ January 14th 2009, 1:39 pm wrote: Nlouch @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:04 am wrote: Quote: I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible So, you have had the room singing and paying for drinks all night. Soemoen new comes in later and they get to sing really soon? Above those paying for drinks all night? This is where it becoems tricky. Just because someone comes in late does not make them unimportant to the ones that have been there all night. Only difference is they may only get one song compared to the others. Around here we have a LOT of graveyard shifts that don't even get off of work until later. Are they not allowed to party & have fun with the rest of everyone? I got one group of around 10 that don't even get off work until 10:30-11 each night, but they come in & their tab at the end of the night is usually substantially more than some that have been there all night. As long as people understand the rotation & know this is how it works & you do not stray from it, there are very few - if any complaints. If someone who has been in the bar all night comes up to you at 11:30PM and asks to sing again right away because they have to leave because they have to get up early for work, you tell them to come back again some other time and that you can't bump them up. However, If someone walks in at 11:30PM because of their work obligations, they get special treatment and don't have to wait for an entire rotation to sing their first song. Seems very unfair to me. The people who get there early have to follow the rules while the people who get there late get preferential treatment. The people who get there early have to leave early to get a good night's sleep for their jobs and the people who get there late, get there late because they have been at their jobs. As I've stated many times before, If a singer walks in and there are "X" amount of singers in the bar, that new singer should have to hear every singer before he or she gets to sing, regardless of how many times the other singers have already sung. Once you finish singing a song, you immediately should be placed at the back of the line and NO ONE should be put in front of you. EVERY new singer should be placed at the end of the line. If everyone who has been in the bar all night has to wait an entire rotation to sing another song, so should the person who just walked in the door. If my job precludes me from staying for the last hour and a half of the show, why should the guy who can't get there for the first hour and a half of the show get special treatment if I don't get special treatment because I have to leave early for MY JOB??

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Author:	Lonman [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
BruceFan4Life @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:06 pm wrote: Lonman @ January 14th 2009, 1:39 pm wrote: Nlouch @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:04 am wrote: Quote: I agree that the fairest way of running the rotation is to put new slips as soon as possible So, you have had the room singing and paying for drinks all night. Soemoen new comes in later and they get to sing really soon? Above those paying for drinks all night? This is where it becoems tricky. Just because someone comes in late does not make them unimportant to the ones that have been there all night. Only difference is they may only get one song compared to the others. Around here we have a LOT of graveyard shifts that don't even get off of work until later. Are they not allowed to party & have fun with the rest of everyone? I got one group of around 10 that don't even get off work until 10:30-11 each night, but they come in & their tab at the end of the night is usually substantially more than some that have been there all night. As long as people understand the rotation & know this is how it works & you do not stray from it, there are very few - if any complaints. If someone who has been in the bar all night comes up to you at 11:30PM and asks to sing again right away because they have to leave because they have to get up early for work, you tell them to come back again some other time and that you can't bump them up. However, If someone walks in at 11:30PM because of their work obligations, they get special treatment and don't have to wait for an entire rotation to sing their first song. Seems very unfair to me. The people who get there early have to follow the rules while the people who get there late get preferential treatment. The people who get there early have to leave early to get a good night's sleep for their jobs and the people who get there late, get there late because they have been at their jobs. Well, sorry you see it that way. I give everyone a chance to sing at least one song. No special treatment. The people that have been there all night will still sing more than someone who comes in late - which only may be one song total. And if someone comes in too late, then they don't sing at all because I have a cut off point in rotation & if everyone that has been singing has a slip up when I cut the rotation off, then you will be guaranteed to sing your last song. Quote: As I've stated many times before, If a singer walks in and there are "X" amount of singers in the bar, that new singer should have to hear every singer before he or she gets to sing, regardless of how many times the other singers have already sung. Once you finish singing a song, you immediately should be placed at the back of the line and NO ONE should be put in front of you. EVERY new singer should be placed at the end of the line. If everyone who has been in the bar all night has to wait an entire rotation to sing another song, so should the person who just walked in the door. If my job precludes me from staying for the last hour and a half of the show, why should the guy who can't get there for the first hour and a half of the show get special treatment if I don't get special treatment because I have to leave early for MY JOB?? Well I would have to apologize then if you felt that way, but this is the way we run our rotation for 15 years (at the same place 7 nights), and over that time I can count on one hand the amount of complaints we've had. It's very consistant & everyone gets up at least once. Get there early and stay to close, you sing more. You have to leave early, well, see you next time (or not - I don't expect everyone to return, that would be pretty arrogant thinking on my behalf) - no different than having to come in late. You still sang, maybe it was only one song, come in late, you still sang - maybe only one song. The point is everyone gets to sing at least one song!

Author:	Gryf [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
mckyj57 @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:26 am wrote: I don't know if it is fair, but here is what I do. I have CompuHost set to show only the next four singers on the marquee. When the rotation is less than 10 singers, new singers go at the end. When the rotation is more than 10 singers, they go in at space 5 or 6, interleaved with current singers from that point. That way nobody gets "bumped" from the marquee. Virtually identical to my method. People will wait around to sing their first song only so long. Once they get a song in rarely do they just up and leave. Let everyone know you'll get them up as soon as possible and everyone doesn't mind coming back. Yes some regulars complain that new folks get put above returning folks. They typically complain until they come in on the 2nd rotation and are singing in 20 or 30 minutes instead of an hour. The light goes on and they get it. One of the folks who supports this rotation method did a math proof on a napkin to prove to another person that everyone gets to sing more when it's used. I wish he had given it to me instead of taking it home

Author:	Karen K [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
Lonman and I share the same philosophy on this issue. Fact is, if you're quick with the rotation, it almost becomes a moot point as so many singers get pushed through in the course of the evening, it doesn't take long at all to get up a second or third time. It is those who dilly dally with their rotation, taking up to 1-2 minutes between singers, that create the hard feelings for singers. (over four hours, if you waste 15 minutes or more in an hour, and you have a four-hour show, you LOSE an HOUR of singing time!) I don't wanna see videos between singers; if a singer makes a mistake on their song and wants to change their mind, I can change it for them in less than 10 seconds. If, however, they don't know what they want to sing instead, they'll come up immediately after the singer who takes their place. As far as making new singers wait an entire rotation, that is death. Who knows how many came in with them who maybe came in just to hear them sing? Why miss an opportunity to groom another group of singers who may become regulars, just because they didn't get their at the beginning of the show? Another thing to remember is that the rotation will automatically become shorter through attrition toward the end of the night. Those die-hards will hang around in hopes that spots open up for them. Regarding bartenders or owners or staff people who want to sing - in our place the staff/bartenders NEVER pull rank - they get in the rotation like everyone else if they have time to sing. The exception is if it has been a slower night and everybody sitting in the room has sung 4-5 times already - I'll slide venue employees in. Nobody cares...we do have our share of rotation cops, but as long as they get to sing enough times in their own mind they really don't care by the end of the night.

Author:	Spotted Cat [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
I've done it the same way for years with virtually no problems. Just put them in the order received. If someone gives me multiple slips, they know that I'm just holding them as a courtesy and their next slip goes in the rotation after they finish singing. I doesn't matter if they are friend or family. Duets count as a turn for both singers. This is really the only example of fair rotation. If someone questions me I give this simple explanation. My rotation is just like a line at an amusement park, once you ride you go to the back of the line. It's simple, fair, and everyone understands it.

Author:	KaraokeJerry [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: what is a "fair" rotation?
I go the opposite way with duets and groups songs - I ENCOURAGE duets and group songs. These count as only ONE singer's turn (the first person listed on the slip) in the rotation. I will not penalize a singer who is asked to accompany another singer. But I am also clear - it has to count as ONE singer's turn. I find this encourages weaker singers to try material they are afraid of, because they have a helper. It also gets some great pairings up on stage. My purpose is to get up as many singers as possible, and have them as happy as possible, and to encourage a camaraderie among the singers. (My record was 20 singers doing "Lean On Me" by Bill Withers on 6 mics - it was awesome.) As far as overall rotation, I try to fit in new singers within 3-6 songs of their turn-in, then their spot in the rotation is set. No requests are accepted after I cut off the rotation (when I have enough songs to finish the show), so latecomers just run the risk of just not getting a turn.