Karaoke Forums

I read from this board that many advanced and pro users recommend going passive speakers + separate amp for sound quality - power and expandability.
To this regards, the Yamaha Club Series C112V/S112V (12" - 175w RMS - 350w Program - 40 lbs) or C115V/S115V 15" - 250w RMS - 500w Program - 60 lbs) passive speakers seems to be very popular among the DJ/KJ world as mid-entry quality system.

In your opinion and for comparison purposes, how would a pair of Yamaha Club C112V/S112V (12" - 175w RMS - 350w Program - 40 lbs - $600) Passive Speaker powered by a QSC GX5 amplifier (2x500w RMS $400) sound compared to other Powered Speakers brands/models such as:

- Behringer B212A
- Carvin LM12A
- JBL EON series
- Mackie SRM450
- Yamaha MSR400
- Yorkvile NX25P
- Others?

Appreciate your feedback...

They are all going to be comparible. If I were to go with those options i'd stay with the Yamaha/QSC option. I prefer components myself.

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Wow, another highly subjective question that I'm sure you will get many opinions on. I took the time to write it, so you should take the time to read it. You want to compare seven powered plastic speakers to a pair of passive Yamaha S112V wooden speakers being pushed by 500 watts @ eight ohms each with a passive crossover. Five of the plastic speakers are bi-amped which is a plus, the Behringer uses a single amp and a passive crossover, I suspect the Carvin does as well as they don't seem to want to mention it in their spec sheet. Lets just rule out the Behringer because even though it is relatively inexpensive, it starts with the letter "B". None of the others can attain 500 watts with the little NX25P only pushing 250 watts and the remainder pushing 400 watts. That's not a fair battle for the Yorkville, a closer match would have been the NX55P @ 550 watts but coming in @ $880.00 each may be cost prohibitive. Unfortunately it isn't that easy as just going by how much power a speaker has,some speakers are more efficient than others. IMO plastic speakers just don't sound as warm as their wooden cousins. If I were looking for a 12" self powered speaker I would probably go with the QSC HPR122i, made of Baltic birch, bi-amped, 500 watts total power, six year warranty and nice features, it's a little pricey @ 800 but it will give you outstanding performance. Another great speaker is the ElectroVoice SXA series, but they are even more expensive and I'm not to sure the cost vs performance is a good match. My second choice would be the Yorkville NX55P. Out of the Yamaha, JBL and Mackie 400 watt trio I would have to give the edge to the Eon followed closely by the Yamaha. I doubt you would be disappointed in any of the bi-amped type self powered speakers. The single amp variety tend to run into a distortion problem when driven hard. I suspect the QSC, ElectroVoice and Yorkville(NX55P), would have superior sound quality to the S112V. The Yamaha, Mackie and JBL triplets would probably be marginally better as far as sound quality as they are bi-amped( I think this might be real close). I'm pretty sure the Carvin and the Behringer would probably come in last place as they are single amp speakers. You need to find a music store where you can go listen for yourself. Everyone's tastes and objectives are different.

By the way, I used to run a four way component system for many many years. A little over a year ago I switched to self powered speakers (still running four way) and have no regrets. I wish I would have switched years ago.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Very useful, informative post Londenlive and i have also heard good things about the Carvin powered speakers on a cost/performance basis, but any of that equipment that you recommended would be a pleasure to sing through!

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Man Must Know His Limitations -Clint Eastwood

Thanks Lonman, LondonLive and others.

Your feedback are as always meaningful and valuable. This will help me make informed decisions for my starter selection.
If I could afford it, I would definitely go with the highly acclaimed QSC HPR122i ($800 ea) powered speakers.

I guess that I won't be disappointed going either way - Yam S112V/C112V passive vs. (selective) active - in term of sound quality based on the recommendations.
On one hand, powered speakers are more versatile and simple to configure. On the other hand, I like the look of the Yam C112V (elastomeric coating + full grill) as it would blend in well with the home decor while providing closely comparable sound quality.
Decision... decision...

LondonLive,
Which powered speakers are you using after the switch?
By stating "running four way": do you mean running a set of 4 speakers?

Hi Wildfin, well I do run four speakers but that's not what fourway means. I have Yorkville U15P's for upper's. They are a three way cabinet, meaning they have a 15", three 5" and a compression driver in them. I set them on top of two Yorkville LS800P 18" bottom's, so the 18",15", three 5's and the compression driver make it a four way system. My signal is devided into four different frequency ranges.

Bang for the buck your probably going to be better off with the Yamaha/QSC combination. They will hold their value well if you ever decide to resell. See if AudioLine still have some open box C112's. Now that would be a real good setup and a great price if they do. By the way, looks aren't everything.
http://www.audiolines.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Thanks LondonLive for the detail explanation... appreciate it.


Actually, looks are everything...
Especially if I need to convince the CFO in charge...

By the way, I read that the Yamaha C115V/S115V (15" - 250w RMS - 60 lbs - $320) is better preferred and recommended on this board b/c of its better bass response.

However, I am wondering whether or not the smaller model C112V/S112V (12" - 175w RMS - 40 lbs - $280) would actually provide a better mid/high range - which would then make it a better fit for karaoke/voice/acoustic guitar applications?

Or, unless the 15" C115V/S115V could also output similar mid/high quality response, then that would definitely make it a better choice hands down.
If not, would the 12" C112V/S112V become a better system with an additional powered-sub compared to the 15" C115V/S115V without powered-sub?

What are your opinion and experience on the two said models?

Only when they have a sub to complement them, in my opinion. The overall sonic experience for karaoke is better when the songs with bass have bass.


Generally speaking, 12" tops and 18" subs are a better match than 15" tops and 18" subs. Or so I understand.


I have often been to shows with each of them, and without subs I recommend the S115V.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

12" cabs I never run without a sub under them. They just do not put out the bass response (normally) that I prefer for club use.
The 15" model is a little more bass oriented & can be used with or without a sub. Remember the amp should match the S115V program power of 500 watts, not the 250. Same goes for the S112V, if the RMS is 175, the program is 350.

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Wildfin, didn't you know that the more you read the more you convince yourself that you need to read some more. Actually all kidding aside, you will probably notice a light presence increase when using a 12" instead of a 15" on vocals, but certainly not all that much. I'm sure you would be happy with the definition on the S115V as well and it will do a very respectable job in the lower reaches, especially if positioned in a corner. It sounds like you are alot like me, I will keep reading about my options until I'm totally confused.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

LondonLive,
You read my mind, I am now very convinced that the more I read, the "better" confused I am... but I sure do learn a lot too and that would help me make informed decision.
Thanks for all the feedback...

There is only one bad thing that anyone could say about the S115V and it has nothing to do with how they sound. They are very heavy. Considering how little they cost and how solidly they are built, they are high on the value scale. I don't know about the drivers they're putting in them now, but in the past they were very robust and able to last many years of daily use. If weight isn't an issue they are well worth the price. If you can find some on craig's list as I have seen, you will have a real bargain.

You can do a very good Karaoke show with a pair of Electro Voice Sx100 speakers too, and even though they have 12" woofers they put out a surprising amount of bass. In smaller venues you could get away without using a sub, but it depends on how fussy you want to be about the bass. You could add one sub and it would be fine.

I just used a pair of EV Zx1's with only 1 Sb122 sub in a small bar and it sounded great. Again, it depends on how much bass you and the customers want. The vocals were very clear.

For about $500 each, a pair of Peavey SP2s or a Pair of EV Eliminators will rock the house and blast the place if you use a powerful amp.

A pair of EV Eliminators with a pair of Eliminator subs will blast nearly any bar into oblivion. With the right amount of amplifier power you could have people running for the door with blood running out of their ears and their guts churning from the bass. That's about $2,000 before adding the amp, speakers, cables, mixer etc.

It depends on what size venues and what size crowds you're likely to be playing for. A quality speaker with 12" woofers can easily handle 100 people. If you use a fairly powerful amp like 700-1,000 watts per channel at 4 ohms, you can always add more speakers and have 2 speakers per channel at 4 ohms. If you get a powerful amp to start with you can run 2 good quality 15" speakers starting out and then add a sub or two later using the same amp without having to buy another amp.

So if you spend a couple hundred more on a powerful amp to begin with, you won't have to buy another amp when you add a sub. A Samson PG3800 pushes 900 wpc @ 4ohms, I know where you can get one for around $329. It pumps 1,800 wpc @ 2 ohms. You could run 3 8ohm speakers per side with it.

So figure out what size places you're going to be playing at and about how many people and you'll have some idea if you should use 15s or 12s. Just buy good quality speakers and you won't regret it. Electro Voice, Yorkville, Yamaha, Peavey, FBT, RCF, QSC. Stick to that list and you can't go wrong.

2 SM350s for small venues, combined with 15" sub; 2 SM450s for larger venues, combined with sub. Enough sound for anywhere (including a community college gymnasium) with 350s, 450s, and sub. No amps, no crossovers. 350s are about 30 pounds apiece. I can easily lift them up onto the speaker stands. I know the majority of people on this forum don't care for Mackie but I will say, for sound quality and ease of set-up and tear-down (other than miles of mic cords) and not having to hoist a 150-pound rack, I love active. Won't go back to passive, even though I have a set of the 15-inch Yamahas and a set of 15-inch Bag Ends sitting in my garage, a pair of passive Peavey monitor wedges, and two big subs. Too old to hoist that stuff anymore.

I'm one of the ones that's not a fan of Mackie or JBL for thr simple reason that I don't think they are a good value. They have been overpriced for the performance they deliver for quite some time IMO. I agree 100% with Karen, I love lighter weight gear and I have researched far and wide to find all light weight gear for me to tote around. Anything over 50 pounds I consider to be way too heavy. However, some folks don't mind or some installations aren't mobile.

For the mobile KJ or DJ, IMO, light weight is a HUGE consideration. I would rather lug in 4 light weight speakers than 2 heavy ones any day.

I stand by my previous list. I would NEVER recommend JBL or Mackie speakers.
Lots of other great, high quality gear out there for less money. I would rather buy a Behringer powered speaker for half the price of a Mackie or JBL and I bet in a blindfold test lots of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. $400 for a powered speaker or $800 for about the same thing with the Mackie or JBL name. To me the difference is no way worth twice the price, but I'm not all hung up on certain brands. One of my best sounding microphones is "a piece of junk" Nady SP-1.

That might be possible under moderate use, but when you start pushing them to their limits I don't think there would be any doubt which is which, even blindfolded. Outside of four JBL raw frame speakers and three JBL compression drivers (which none are presently in use) I don't believe I own anything else with either the Mackie or JBL names on them.

Just between you and I, I've always been rather impressed by how well the Samson R11 mic sounds for it's price, and I still own an old Nady 201 wireless.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I like the Behringer XM8500, for $20.00. In many ways, it sounds as good as an SM-58. But it and the Nadys still have a lot more handling noise than you would ever want from a handheld microphone. The Nady wired mics sound like you are scraping your fingernails on them if they have any gain applied at all. And they feel like tin. The XM8500 has the advantage of solid construction with some weight to it.

I could see using either of those for a mic in a stand -- never for routine hand-held use. It makes no sense at all to front at multi-thousand dollar system with a $10.00 microphone when there is a large and easily discernible difference by spending $90.00 more.

Mackie SRM450s aren't perfect, but even I as a Behringer B212A owner will admit they are better than the Behringer. The SRM450s are a bit of an industry standard, and there is a reason for that. They are pretty darned good, and are at least a solid value. Of course they nave now been replaced with the v2, presumably because the EV, Yorkvillle, and QSC speakers started kicking their tail in comparison tests. Times change and gear that was comparatively great becomes comparatively junk.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I am curious to know more about bi-amp vs. non bi-amp.
So if I understand correctly, bi-amp system can in general produce better sounding because it can dispatch and drive the LF and HF more effectively and independently?
Would the above bi-amp 12" powered-speakers still out-perform a pair of C115V/S115V (15" 250w/500w/1000w) powered by a matching amp = QSC GX5 (2x500w RMS @ 8ohms)?

A bi amp speaker - say a low driver & high driver - can sound better because each driver is recieving it's own power. They are also being electronically crossed over so there is no loss of signal to each driver.
In a non-bi amp speaker, using a passive crossover, uses 1 amp to push both drivers going through a passive crossover that has a series of capacitors & coils that act as filters to allow only certain frequencies to get to their prospective drivers, losing some fidelity in the process.
I bi-amp powered speaker can affectively sound better than a passive single amp driven speaker - but then again that all depends on speaker efficiency & power ratings. A properly amp matched passive speaker can still sound excellent being driven with one amp.

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Lonnie pretty well summed it up Wildfin, the only thing I would add is that the only real down falls of a passive crossover is it's power handling ability (which in most applications isn't a real problem) and the fact that at the point the passive crossover splits the frequency from one speaker to another there tends to be a dip at and around that frequency( that is what the slope of a crossover is, the higher the slope, the narrower that crossover point is). For this reason the crossover frequency is generally placed at a point that it will least effect the performance of the speaker. The bottom line is, there is no real problem with a passive crossover, and those Yamaha's you are thinking about would do a fine job for you. They compare very well to any of the self powered triplets you are considering

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye