Karaoke Forums

What is the proper sound chain for vocal processing? Here's what I mean...

Microphone >
Mic Pre>
EQ>
Dynamics Processing (Gate > Expander > Compressor > Limiter) >
Effects Processing (Reverb for Example) >
Channel Fader (Mixer) >
Master Fader>
Output to Amp>
Speakers

Is that correct or do I have things mixed up? Are there situations where one would want to change the order of devices in the signal path?

Thanks

Are these processors being used in between your mixer & mic?
Not sure I am understanding what you really want.
A typical mixer channel strip will go
Mic Pre
EQ
EFX
FADER
MASTER FADER
to speakers.

If you have like dynamics plugged into an insert, then these would actually go before the EQ but after the mic pre.
There are always situations in which something can be changed around for different sounds, not generally in the mixer itself but in outboard processing.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Thanks Lonman

Perhaps I should have started with some background. Sorry about that. I'm a mobile DJ and I have a few paying Karaoke gigs under my belt. I also provide sound reinforcement for regular corporate gigs. I provide sound for regional meetings hosted a banquet halls. They congratulate their sales leaders, talk about new promotions, give training, etc. I provide Mics mainly for spoken word, I also play upbeat and inspirational music when people come to stage. Finally, I help out with AV presentations, PowerPoint, DVDs etc.

I have been a DJ for about 10 years and I started KJ gigs about a year ago. I have been hosting corporate gigs for about 3-4 years. Throughout that time, I have always used DJ mixers which offer little to no features in support of vocals. At most DJ mixers offer 2 mic inputs and there isn't much there in the way of processing for the mics, maybe EQ if you're lucky but most of the time it's just tone controls.

I have been DJ'ing exclusively from my laptop for the past 3 years or so. Now it's time for a new mixer and I don't plan on buying a DJ mixer this time. Mixing happens in software so there is no need for a crossfader. I actually use two outputs from my computer, one for the main mix and one for headphone cue.

Okay there's the background I should have posted first. Now back to the question...

Yes I was thinking about outboard dynamics processing on a insert. So if that's the case, then it's...

MIC PRE
DYNAMICS
EQ
EFX
FADER
MASTER FADER

Correct? If so next question. What is a good dynamics processor for vocals. This would be for Karaoke. I'm also thinking about using some dynamics processing for spoken word. I have been looking at the dbx products. I hear they are good but not great. I'm not willing to spend a fortune but I don't want to spend money on a crummy product.

Just get a mixer that has that all built in if karaoke is kind of secondary anyway. However you can't use a regular mixer for doing things like cueing like a dj mixer is capable of.
The ideal mixer for both live & dj is probably the Allen & Heath Xone 464. It has both a great dj mixer & a 4 channel live mixer built in complete with inserts & effects loops. 4 band eq with sweepable mid high & mid lows.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Allen---Hea ... 1153543.gc

Only drawback is the price!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have looked at the A&H XONE 464 a number of times. I agree, it's probably the best mixer out there that combines the features of a live sound mixer and a DJ mixer into one package. There are a few other DJ mixers out there that have more than two mic inputs but none of them are as feature packed as the A&H.

Having said that I think the Xone 464 is probably overkill for my needs. I don't need all the stereo sources it offers nor do I even need the crossfader. My DJ software handles the crossfades and mixing inside the application. All the master sound comes out one single output from a USB sound card attached to my computer. There is another output configured in the software as the cue output which happens to be the laptop headphone jack. I have that connected to another input on my mixer which I never really bring into the mix. The channel fader sits at the bottom all the time and I just have the Cue button active so I can hear the next track I'm going to cue.

I do need a few stereo inputs on my mixer of course...

Master Out from my DJ Software
Cue Out from DJ Software
Input from a DVD player
Input from another computer (PowerPoint, etc.)

And of course I need mic inputs, 4 is probably the most I will ever use.

I was looking at the A&H ZED-12FX. It has 6 Mics, 3 Stereo, and USB which I could use as my master out from my laptop. Actually I think the USB return uses one of those three stereo channels. It also has built in effects which I could use for Karaoke. As far as headphone cue, most live mixers have PFL which I could use, correct?

The ZED-12FX is about $500 where the XONE:464 is about $1700.

DBX is a reputable brand, and their dynamics processing equipment is worth the money. Of my live sound friends, who are generally doing venues with < 500 people or big out-door stuff like fairs, about half of them use at least some DBX dynamics boxes, if not DBX exclusively. If they are suitable for bands paying $200+/night for hired sound, then they are fine for karaoke, IMO.

Many of my friends also use the Behringer MDX-series. The MDX4600 is especially nice for karaoke because it's 4 channels of expander/gate and compressor in one rack unit. I use the MDX2600 for applications where a side-chain is desirable.

As far as FX go, my karaoke singers have always been happy with the in-board FX on the mixers we use, which are mostly Behringer. I think I'm getting one or two of the out-board Behringer FX units later this year for added flexibility, but I need more aux sends first.

And yeah, Allen & Heath is expensive. I like Soundcraft better than them, as I think you get a similar quality product for less money and often more bells and whistles, too. But Yamaha is also good stuff for very little money. And there is always Behringer, which I use faithfully, but only because I don't have a big enough budget for a nice Soundcraft live mixer.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

After doing more reading online, it looks like there are plenty of people that are satisfied with the dbx products.



I have used two Behringer products in the past and had bad experiences with both. I'm happy to hear they are working for you but I'm still not willing to give them another go.



I have looked at both the Yamaha and the Soundcraft products in addition to the Allen & Heath. Of the live sound mixers that I have checked out, I like the A&H ZED series best, followed by the Soundcraft EFX12. Perhaps I should look at the Yamaha again. Don't they have a built-in compressor on some of their models?

Before I bought the Zed-14, basically a Zed-12FX less the effects, the closest Soundcraft I could find with the features I required was the FX16 except I didn't want onboard FX. The A&H has been talked about and recommended extensively here quite recently. I love mine.

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Gadget's Karaoke : Boldly singing what no one has dared sing before.

Thanks I saw the thread on the ZED series. Looks like a great product.

Yes, you are correct on the PFL. Allen & Heath has been my mixer of choice for many years. Exceptional pre amps and EQ section. Quite possibly the best single thing I ever did for my PA was switching to an Allen & Heath mixer. Just one push of those alps 100mm faders or twist of a knob and you will know you aren't using a toy. Find a store that carry's them near you and you will discover this for yourself.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Actually Dr. R you forgot to include the ST4 (ext fx return), 2TRK RTN and ST RTN stereo inputs albeit they are limited to volume control and shared EQ this still leaves a lot of scope for all that extra stuff

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Gadget's Karaoke : Boldly singing what no one has dared sing before.

Yes, some of their analog stuff has a one-knob, fixed-ratio compressor. They also have built-in dynamics in their digital mixers, along with lots of other cool features. I wouldn't suggest a digital mixer for karaoke though; you'd spend too much time going through menus for every singer.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I have a pair of DBX 286A processors on my wireless mics and love them. Very versatile.

PIC LINK

@gunghouk - Yeah I forgot about the extra inputs on the ZED series. There are plenty of inputs for my needs.

@jeffsw6 - I don't want to mess with a digital mixer for a live application. I would love to use the MOTU 896 mk3 as my interface / mixer but the last thing I need is for something to go wrong during a performance and then have to fiddle around with my mouse in some software application's menus to fix it. That could be embarrassing.

@BarryKaraoke - I am seriously considering the dbx 286A. It seems to have everything I could want (as far as dynamics are concerned) in one box. EDIT: I guess it's missing a limiter. I think a pair of those would work quite nice. Since the dbx 286A has the mic preamp built-in and 1/4 inch outputs would one just hookup the output of the 286A to the line in on a mixers channel strip?

Also thanks to everyone else who has helped out so far.

I actually meant something like the Yamaha O1V, but even that requires you to select a channel and bring up the EQ/send pots on the LCD display. I have seen bands do it successfully but for karaoke I think it's impractical.


Yes, that's how you should connect it. A limiter per-mic can be real nice for karaoke but compression helps a lot, too; you can probably live without it. If you don't care for the out-board mic pre-amp, or you want a limiter, dbx has dedicated gate/compressors like the dbx 1046 which include limiters, and pack more than one unit into a single rack unit. The dbx 1046 is four gate/compressor/limiters in 1U for $500 - $550. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/dbx-1046-Quad-Compressor-Limiter?sku=183550

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I'm using the 4 channel DBX1046 compressor in the mic inserts. This unit has an adjustable threshold brickwall limiter built in for each channel. Very nice unit but a little expensive, even secondhand

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Gadget's Karaoke : Boldly singing what no one has dared sing before.

But well worth it! No effects though, this is something that would need to be added.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

My external FX unit is a TC Electronic M3000 (not M300) hence the Zed-14

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Gadget's Karaoke : Boldly singing what no one has dared sing before.

That's how I do it. Since it has a pre-amp of it's own, I don't use the inserts on my mixer. The compressor is quite good, so I have never had a need for a limiter.

Thanks again everyone for all the help. Wow, you guys are have been a great help.

With regard to the DBX 1046 compressor on the mic inserts and Lonman's comment on the unit not having effects... If I go with the Allen & Heath ZED-12FX, I can still use the DBX 1046 or just about any other compressor on a mic insert and still use the ZEDs built-in effects correct?

Another interesting product is the Symetrix 528E Voice Processor. It's pricey no doubt, but that box looks very nice. I'm sure you guys know more about it than I do but it has...

Mic Pre / De-Esser / Expander / Compressor / 3 Band Parametric EQ

I normally take a look at the PDF user manuals when I'm researching a product and I have looked at a ton of them for dynamics processors now. I normally just glance at them but for the Symetrix, I ended up reading the whole thing. The manual is very informative, it blows away some of the manuals for other compressors out there. Even if you have no intention of buying the product, it's a great reference on dynamics processing. Perhaps, to the seasoned veteran the information might be old hat but for a noob like me, It was invaluable information.

Here is the PDF Link to the manual.

While I'm on the subject, another source for some great Pro Audio reference material can be found on the Rane website under the heading Reference.

http://www.rane.com/

There is great "Rane Note" about Compression found HERE.