Karaoke Forums

This is a rant, I suppose.

My favorite show has many defects. It has lackluster wireless mics (VocoPro 5800), terrible library, won't play my CDGs. The things it has going for it are great backline sound system, good food, good people, and an early start time.

But one thing is becoming clear. If one host is there, the owner's daughter, the sound is tolerable. If the other, the owner, is there -- well, it's going to suck. Because he is deaf or the very next thing to it. The sound is always equalized wrong, and most times he adjusts the vocals so they are completely dry. It sounds as terrible as a 5000 watt system with EV subs and speakers can.

I wonder if the reason that so many people seem enamored with these lousy wireless mics is because they have no ear? I go to these shows and the first problem is it isn't set up to properly hear yourself. That makes a vocalist tend to push, and so when I start belting it out the system distorts. I pull the mic back to avoid that, and the lousy off-axis response of the crappy mics makes my voice drop out. I know that really talented vocalists can make those crappy mics sound as good as they can, and I certainly sound about as good as anyone around here does on them. But they still really blow.

But you listen to just about every host on this forum, and they are gods gift to mixing. Their ear is fantastic. Yet they endorse crappy mics that are completely and obviously inferior. What is going on here? Are we as good at mixing as we claim to be? I don't think so. I think a good 50% of the hosts here who claim to mix well and have a good ear -- don't. I know for sure that 50% of the working karaoke hosts I have seen have nothing going for them there. I think if you think a crappy mic sounds as good as a pro mic, or worse yet "is good enough for karaoke", then you should look very, very, closely at your ear and what you are doing to your singers.

Rant done.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

OK let me rant....Due to shooting guns without ear muffs, huge guns aboard ship, perhaps too many hours of loud music and old age my hearing aint what it used to be. I have flat got to run FOH to get a balance between vocal and music. Of course with a high crowd level one doesnt need perfect hearing but it helps sometimes. It is frustrating..

I have set up many inhouse sound systems and mobile in many venues. Sound is never going to have consistent perfect results but varies with many factors. But if one knows the basics and tunes for the best average sound 90% of the crowd can not detect the difference or even care.

Also in my old age I have dentures and have to sing awhile to blow the dust out of the pipes. I judge systems by how easy they are to sing on without struggling. Of course you get used to your own system because it's tuned according to your hearing. But when my regulars are struggling and giving me or my host those looks I know something is wrong. They get used to sounding better than most systems.

Rant Over.

My Turn....

There is a reason that people are completely in AWE over a system that sounds great because the majority of them sound like crap. I know of very few hosts in my area (and there are a TON of shows in our area) who work for other people who really have no clue at all. Not far behind are the hosts who are owners and who really don't have a clue. If they can hear the music and hear the singer, they think everything is fine. Mics have a great bearing on it. I have used 58s for years, won't use anything else, although I have been using an Audix myself lately and for my voice it is a better sound (very strong, major projection, shrill in high chest voice).

I believe there are definitely two types of shows: One where the focus is on purely fun, any karaoke will do, it's all the same and as long as people are there drinking and having fun, they think they've got it right. Homies turn up whether the karaoke is good or is krappyoke. Makes no difference to them. So yah, those $25 mics are great in that scenario. Majority of songs: Baby Got Back, FXXX her Gently, etc., etc.

The flip side of that coin is the show where the focus is on SINGING...gee, there's an idea. I get very frustrated by the former kind of show and will continue to provide the latter as long as I can stand up and sing. I base my opinion of a show on what we do - that is, invest in equipment that makes it easy for singers to sing -- they love the way they sound on it, the effects are set right, etc., etc.

I've been tempted to run clinics occasionally just for those people who have no clue, but in reality, if they don't know there is a problem, they're not going to fix it. Presto, no problem...and get paid $125 for their shows...and continue to perpetuate the 'karaoke is a joke' reputation.

Rant over.

You know - as a KJ I'll work my best with any singer that really wants to sound their best. But too often I get singers who will cup the mic (even when I tell the guys not to, but they don't care because it's the look they're after) or sing across the top, or in the case of the ladies hold the mic down to their waist... after awhile you say to yourself OK if that's the way you want it you're gonna sound like crap and I'm done at this end.



Just got an Audix OM2. In skulls. It's a good thing it's a terrific mic because it's what everyone has been using since I got it. The normal mics up front are Beta 58s and it really does sound better IMO. Smoother mids and more presence. I tried a song singing parts on the 58 and parts on the skull mic and preferred the skull mic.

Here's what it looks like:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document ... 93&index=1

That's way too pretty to bring to a show and hand out!

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

mckyj57 this is off topic a little, but what do you mean when you say they have a "great backline sound system"?? In the circles I run backline typically refers the artists equipment (amplifiers, effects racks, etc) that aren't involved in the sound reinforcement system. I don't see how a Karaoke show would have any backline so can you clarify what you're referring to?

OK Back to the subject at hand:

As KJ's go, you've hit on a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I'm sure many on this forum have seen since I joined that I have a great passion for pro-audio and little tolerance of people who claim to have expertise when in reality they do not. I think we've all seen plenty of shows where the KJ stinks and couldn't mix his/her way out of a paper bag. While I don't expect KJ's to be audio engineers I do expect them to be able to properly use their equipment. Lets face it folks, with the power of the PA's most of us are using, we have the ability to cause great pleasure for folks or cause significant hearing damage. That's a big responsibility and one that in my book should not be taken lightly.

I do tend to think that most of the folks on this board are above average or better when it comes to the pro-audio concepts of our job. The fact that people are actively participating here means they care about doing the job right and learning better ways to do it. That alone is a huge improvement over many of the KJ's who go out, buy the cheapeast system that they feel is acceptable and then never really learn the ins and outs of how pro-audio works. These are the KJ's I'm used to seeing and are the reason I got into this business.

I will also say this though. I don't know if its the alcohol or what, but I think people tend to be over-complimentary at Karaoke shows. So if you're basing your self-assessment of your mixing prowess on the feedback you get from patrons, I would recommend you temper that somewhat. It is good feedback and not necessarily false, but come on, we've all seen that singer who performs a passable (at best) job singing a song but has some goof come up and tell them they're the next big star. I don't know why that happens but I'm sure we each get some of it too. Now of course if the sound were truly offensive (as I've seen in many cases) no one is going to compliment you. But a compliment saying your the best sounding system they've ever seen may only mean that you're above average compared to other crappy KJ's.

We all have strengths and weaknesses in this job no doubt. Some of us are better personalities, some of us are better at working with the bar owners, some of us mix better, some of us have a better appearance. To me the key is that we all try to improve all the areas of our shows as that is what will make us each successful.

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

You are correct. I should correct this to "great PA system minus the mixer and procs". I don't know what the term is for that. They have bi-amped EV QRX-212 with twin EV TX218 subwoofers. Powered with four Crown amps. I think the subs use 1200W each, and the QRX-212s each do 1100 bi-amped. This is a major PA.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

OOOH OOOH OOOH (raising hand ) My turn !!!

I find no intelligent creedance that connects the COST of a system to the QUALITY of the sound. Let me clarify .... A $20,000 pa system in the wrong hands can sound as BAD as a $100 all in one unit. On the flip side if set up correctly and under the right circumstance a lesser system can sound JUST as good as one with all the bells and whistles. Now there is no substituion for raw power or speaker size or quanity in larger venues or 32 band eq's and compressors limiters and processors etc etc.
But having all that is no guarantee you'll have a great sound.

My last few venues have all been on the SMALL side and all I've been using is a powered mixer and 2 15" speakers. The sound is GOOD. Could it be better ???
Maybe ..but not noticeable to the 95% of the customers in the bar.
Oh and by the way I'm still using my $50 dual wireless mics from Nady and I like them !!!!! Now I know they are $50 and not $500 mics but I've never had a complaint about the mics or the overall sound.

Mcky57 -- you need to find another show !!!

Great looking mic. If they make a cordless, I'm sure once my husband sees it, it'll be a "have to have." He painted his cordless 58, of course, but not with skulls. That is very cool looking, Bill. I'm going to use the Audix tonight and see how I feel after multiple songs on it, all types in all ranges. I have a feeling it'll win out (with my voice anyway).

My biggest satisfaction will always be when that stranger that sat at the bar and didnt say boo to anybody but on his way out says "Good Show". Then when he is back the next week and says hi on his way in lets me know that we are on the right track.

Then sometime I go talk to him and get acquainted. Contrary to popular belief (those that think they need 30 singers) these are the people that make a successful show and everybody is happy. I cant put all my energy into one facet I have to watch the crowd and give them a balance of good sound, a high energy show which depends upon many factors according to the personality of the crowd, show no favoritisms to anybody except that lil gal you are in lovewith and try provide the entertainment that the crowd THAT night wants.

I can sit at the desk providing the best sound ever and the next thing I know evrybody including my best singers are partying and could care less what it sounds like. Time for that once a night shot and mingling.

short and sweet

2 things i hate most at a show

too much reverb or NO reverb

when the singers sound like they're singing out of a tin can!

why do deaf KJ's persist in believeing that more reverb will make a singer sound better


what's going on with the tin can thing? I hear that one all the time- I wish I knew how to tell'em to fix it! One host last week even asked me what I thought of his sound when he found out I sing professionally. I said it was "fine" because A) I knew he really didn't want to hear anything else...and 2) I didn't have a solution for the tinniness so why bother? if he'd known how to get rid of it- it wouldn't have been there right?

won't be back at that show ever though! Shame cuz it like 1/2 mile from my house.

_________________

My sound is terrible... ask my customers

My personal sound preference is different to the majority of my customers, I like a small amount of reverb for the majority of songs (I like to hear the diction and a lot of my customers, in my opinion, can't adjust the way the sing to complient the effects). I like quite a lot of reverb on slow songs. . . but yet three of my customers think there should be more effects used. I have two customers that rather sing without any.

One customer can't see the point or hear the difference of my BBE, I love it and think on my cheaper speakers it sounds amazing.

I like the monitor speaker but no one has complimented it, and several singers choose to sing in places where they can not hear it.

I hate my cheap radio mics (it cuts out and empasises sibilance). . . but only one customer chooses the SM58. I have two that argue over who uses the Kam.

I hate "old men smileys"* and continually find them on the EQ, where I host on other systems

I love good quality backing tracks, and yet one couple will only sing on the SGB version of Paradise.

Soundwise I don't have the best show. . . I try and accomidate to all, but since sound is such a personal thing, could we as a host ever find the best.

*not sure how to describe the settings for this, but it's basically lots of bass and lots of top, for those people who have lost their hearing range

I hate "old men smileys"* and continually find them on the EQ, where I host on other systems

?? What the heck is that?


Ok another reason I am excited about my gig this Thursday is I will finally have a knowlegeable dj/kj at my show who will see my entire set up. He showed up for my first one but I had to use the house speakers so I ended up using their amp, mixer and speakers. Plus I have the Yorkies now.

Everything I have learned, has been on here and trial and error. I never got to "shadow" someone or assist them. Hopefully he will show me how to squeeze a little more quality out of my set up. I think it sounds fantastic, but again, I still consider myself a newbie as I didn't even know what a horn was before I hit this forum. Right Mcky?

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

In the HI FI days tube amps had to have coupling capacitors between stages. This decreased the lower frequency response. And in those days the best recording gear lacked low bass response.

The last hearing test I took showed my hearing range rolls off at 3k. So in those days to compensate EQ was born and yes in ninety percent of the systems had a smiley. The bass not as much as the highs but all were smiling...

There were systems in basements that to my opinion sounded better than the systems now. It's like guitar and mic amps. There is a natural vibration in the tube elements that more closely produce natural sound. Also in those days the speaker cones were thinner and didnt take as much power.

So thats my story and I'm stickin to it.

Same here with the Nadys...I've gone through a couple of sets but for the money they can't be beat. Plus I don't have to worry about putting a $200 wireless in the hands of some drunk college kid (the primary audience at my venue).

But for the most part I use the wired Nadys...bought a case of them when they were like 2 for $35. They're nice and heavy like SM58s. And they sound great!

I agree about those shows that don't put any processing on the mics. Elvis with no reverb? A little triggered echo for other songs adds to the "production value" as well. A dry mic calls out every imperfection...at least the EFX can somewhat fix it in the mix.

I use 2 Mackie SM450s. When I do my DJ show, I'll bring in the matching subs but honestly for my bar karaoke gig, they're not paying me enough to bring in all that gear. But for this room, the two Mackies have plenty of punch and some decent low end all on their own.

I'm on the side of the stage next to one of the speakers (I run my show in mono) so am able to tweak vocals, effects and even the song level (during the instrumental break in the song I'll kick up the volume a little from down in the dirt).

But when I go to a show, sound is EVERYTHING. I've quit going to several venues because of substandard sound.

_________________
[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

Encourage them to play rough with the wireless until it breaks. Then replace it with a wired mic.

I insist on the good mics because the singers sound better with them whether they know or care or not. I still use the WMS40 for drunks, I will admit. But if and when they die, I am not replacing them.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I am right there with you. One of my adjust checks on each song is the effects.

1. backing track level
2. overall master volume
3. effects
4. tweak eq for intelligibility and/or smoothness

When I have my Lexicon I will change the effect type -- if it is just the Yamaha effects I will pretty much stick with one and change the delay time and wetness level.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well, that one is right on- an absolute death setting for karaoke.

...and just to show how subjective it all is, I'm one those hosts that consider subs a requirement for dance music when I do DJ work, but wouldn't use 'em for karaoke for a million bucks....

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Not to me. Terrible off-axis response. And how do you stand the handling noise?

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Setting the eq to look like a smile - ie boosting lows going down the line to cutting the mid frequencies (middle) to boosting the highs - in effects making a smile curve on the eq. Not good for karaoke as most of the vocals are in the midrange & if they are cut, the vocals will come out muddy - even though the music may sound great (to the dj's ears). It's more an old dj trick & old home user trick that some inexperienced karaoke hosts applied to karaoke thinking it's going to sound great as well!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!