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I'm sure this has been covered before. I know that it was touched on in a rather lengthy thread that I started a while back but I wanted some more details.

To save on the confusion here is a scenario. Soundcraft (for example) makes MFXi mixers with onboard Lexicon effects. They also make the MPMi mixers which are the same as the MFXi minus the effects processing. Like many boards it's even the same chassis with the area where the effects controls would be left blank.

I'm guessing that the effects processor built into the MFXi series is about the same as Lexicon's lowest end effects unit the MX200. Both have 32 effects presets in two banks of 16.

Just on the surface, it seems to me that the advantage of the mixer built-in effects are one unit instead of two and probably a cost savings of maybe about $100. On the other hand it looks like having the external effects unit would allow for 2 different effects to be processed on two separate inputs at the same time.

Can you share your opinions on the pros and cons for either setup?

The built in effects are about the same as the lowest end MPX200 - although even that is better than other processors from other manus in the same price.
I prefer external effects personally because I can use separate effects - have a delay on one & a reverb on the other, then I can have them play as individual effect or mix them together, or layer them, or run one effect into another for a new effect sound. Having a couple external effects are just alot more versatile than what is just built in to the mixer as these are usually locked into one effect choice only. You can often add an external to a mixer (if it has extra Aux or EFX sends) that has a built in & still be able to do most of the extra tricks.

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Dr.R, you obviously understand how it all works already. Note that none of the analog Soundcraft products have two EFX processors (that I am aware of.) The Lexicon MX200 can be used as a dual-mono processor so you can have two independent FX. I recall that you wanted to keep your out-board rack pretty small (4U plus slant-top mixer?) so if you only want one FX you would probably prefer the built-in route.

I recently picked up an MX400XL and I find it to be slightly cumbersome compared to two separate units; but I am happy with it. I like it better than the Behringer on-board FX I used previously.

Another thing to consider is FX return routing. I didn't look up the block diagram for the Soundcraft mixer you mentioned, but I suspect it will allow you to route the FX return to at least one AUX that you would typically use for monitors. Some karaoke singers will ask for this, and it was one of the main reasons I went to out-board EFX. I give them about -6dB FX in their wedges vs what goes out to FoH, and this seems to work really well for karaoke. I do this simply by using channel strips as returns from the FX processor, instead of putting it on a stereo FX return that doesn't have routing knobs for all the AUX buses. It's really nice to have your FX return on a fader, too. If you do buy an out-board FX processor, definitely route it back to the mix via a channel strip if you have enough inputs available.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Along the same lines as Jeff, I prefer outboard units in part because it allows me to bring the return in through a channel strip rather than the stereo return. This gives me the ability to EQ the returned signal before it's added to the mix. I can then also assign it to the vocal subgroup so that the EFX and vocals are all controlled there. Having fader control, soloing and channel mute capability for the EFX is also very helpful especially when you're trying to get the delay timed to the tempo of the song without the benefit of a tap tempo capability.

That all said, I do still use the on-board EFX unit on my Mackie from time to time in addition to the outboard units. There are certain songs where it's just easier to get a momentary Phaser or Cathedral reverb that way than switching programs on the outboard units.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I run a combination of both. It depends upon the situation. It is easier and you have better control returning thru a separate channel. I run mine almost all wet but only feed them enough to tickle them.

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That's what I do as well, but I wonder if I am causing a comb filtering effect in the vox signals by mixing in the DSP-delayed wet signal with the analog dry signal. I probably won't know until I make some recordings and spend the time to find out how to change the wet/dry mix in the MX400XL without digging through the screens. I have never had the option to do this differently before, though; and all the local bar band sound guys do the same; so I guess I am not too worried about it.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

The coolness factor of what I pick up on daily basis here is astounding. Lonman I'm intrigued. You know I've got the Yamaha board with built in effects, and I myself have often wanted to lair effects... say reverb and echo... etc.

How would I set something like this up for myself, and what type of external effects would you recommend?

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What board is it. It would need to have an extra Aux send in addition to the built in effects own send. Run the Aux to the external & run the outs to a channel strip. Doing this will allow you to utilize the internal effects on the external channel strips so they can be worked together. You can't send the internal effect to the external however. But you could send say the trail of your delay from the external, to the reverb of the internal giving a full delay effect with the delay actually having the reverb instead of just a dry delay. That's just one example.

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My bad, its the MG166CX. It has an effect send. Is that what I use?

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While some manufactures claim they use the chip from the Lexicon or even the chip from the SPX Yamaha, I doubt they actually enable all the algorithms that are present in it's rack mount cousin. I think they give you just enough so you may want to buy the actual external processor. Using an external processor is going to give you more options and better control. I actually use three outboard FX engines, my favorite being the Lexicon MPX1 to cover more complicated multi fx, then a good old Roland SDE series to cover delays and echo ( I like this old unit because it is easy to change on the fly) and then a dedicated digital reverb. These are all returned to the mixer using separate channels with the Aux's set to "Post Fader".

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

That's what I figured.



Their mixers do not have two effects processors, you're correct. Don't some effects require a stereo return? If that was the case the MX200 only has one pair of returns. So when using those effects (the ones that require stereo) you would not be able to use a dual mono setup. Is that right?



Yes you can route the FX out Aux 1 and Aux 2 there is also an FX out.



That makes sense.



The Soundcraft board has a fader, mute and tap tempo on the fx channel strip. The only thing missing is the solo button.

How do you guys route multiple mics to your outboard effects processor. Are you sending those channels out one of your Aux sends to the effects processor? I assume this is how it would be done, but I'm just checking. Then the output of the FX processor to the line in on another channel strip?

Once again, thanks to everyone for your help and feedback.

correct

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Most stereo recordings, and effects, are made so they can be mixed down to mono without any ill effects. It happens acoustically anyway as you are listening to a stereo rig, so if you mix a track or effect down to mono, chances are good that no one will notice.

When you configure the MX200 I believe the effect presets will be based on the routing choice you make, e.g. stereo or dual-mono output. So you can pick between these and connect the returns appropriately. If your rig is stereo and you only have one "aux return" you can use a channel strip for the other one.


My MX400XL has "A" and "B" processors, and I use them as mono input, stereo output. AUX5 goes to input A, and AUX6 goes to input B. For the returns, I bring them back into four channel strips. I have the A left/right returns, and B left/right returns, panned appropriately for stereo; and I send some FX signal to the monitors on AUX1 & AUX2.

The mixer I am using most right now does not have stereo channel strips, but if it did I would use those instead of 2 for each FX return.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Thanks Jeff, I got it. Do you EQ your mics prior to the effects processing or after on the channel strips you use as inputs from the external effects?

I think I might just go for a mixer with internal effects. Most of the time I won't be using the effects and when I do I think all I will need is something simple. If I go the route of mixer integrated effects, so long as I have aux sends, I can always add an external FX box later for more flexibility.

I EQ the vox channel strip, and have not used EQ on FX returns. I have only had EFX on a channel strip for a few weeks, though; I believe Let'er'Rip said he really likes EQ on the FX return. "If it sounds good, it is good."

I also route both the "dry" vox channel strip signal, and the "wet" FX processed signal, into the mix. Some effect presets are not meant to be used this way, and should have only wet signal going to the mix. All will have a few ms of delay on the wet signal as compared to the dry due to A/D/A conversion in the FX processor. This is usually not undesirable.


Indeed, and as you have noticed, there are a number of small-format analog mixers with on-board FX.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

This is the big thing about EFX and cannot be emphasized enough. Good music or live does not need that many EFX unless you are wanting a special effect. For example adding reverbs live is hard since you have natural room reverbs to start with. Delay and damping play a large role in live acoustics. Feed a low level into your units just enough to tickle them. This threshold comes from experience. Returning EFX into a spare channel offers more control and is easier to adjust. Good EFX is not noticeable until you turn them off.

I concentrate on vocal EFX more than background and use a Lexicon MPX 550 routed back into a spare channel.

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Interesting video.

[youtube]ijUM140Hd1A[/youtube]

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I send a fairly hot signal to my EFX and attenuate it at the return fader. If you spend a little time on gain structure here you can avoid introducing (much) additional noise by under-driving the EFX processor and then adding a bunch of gain to the return signal.

In my current configuration, my FX inputs will clip a little above where my mix buses would clip. This means I won't get digital clipping noise from the FX unit unless I am already clipping a console bus anyway.

Good gain structure includes dynamics and FX as well as your other out-board processing and power amps.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

One of the secrets I learned about effects is that most effects on frequencies less than 3KHz just muddy up the sound. I roll off frequencies below 3KHz before they get routed into my Lexicon. This gives a very crisp, clean feel to the vocals.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Absolutely agreed 100%. Set your gain structure properly, and feed a strong signal to your EFX units. If you feed a low level to your EFX units, it absolutely destroys the signal to noise ratio of that unit and you'll notice it in the returned signal.

As far as mixing in reverb on vocals, it all depends on the piece your mixing. Many slower songs should be drenched in reverb and possibly some delay as well. Usually more upbeat tunes the reverb should be only slightly detectable to the ear, just enough to know it's there. Even within the same song there are times where a completely dry signal may be called for (often times the first verse or during a bridge) and other times where you bring in extra (like adding delay only on the chorus parts or more verb on a the final chorus, etc). If you don't know for sure, go with what sounds good to your ear. If all else fails and you're not sure, light reverb is your best bet.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke