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Using Headphones In The Mix
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Author:  jr2423 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Using Headphones In The Mix
I spun this from a comment on another thread.

jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:22 am wrote:
My favorite new tool for karaoke is a $50 pair of headphones.


I used headphones when I started to KJ. But for me, I could never get the mix to sound the same between the headphones and the FOH. It always seemed that what sounded good in the headphones had the vocals slightly underpowered by the music in the FOH. Without looking I don’t remember what brand of headphones I have (Techniques I think). For that very reason this became quite the problem when I recorded live. I’ve wanted to try other brands of headsets but that could become financially prohibitive after a while. :announcer:

What do you think? Poor quality headsets? Inept mixing technique? Or just a short between the aural receptors? :headscratch:
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Well, the frequency response of the FoH and headphones were not the same. EQ can help either one. The headphones I use are $50ea Sennheiser HD205. They are fine for bar work. If you need to mix in really loud positions, buy a better model with more isolation.
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
I have personally never liked mixing with headphones in karaoke or even live situations for that matter & I have tried several models including my AKG K240's which are great sounding cans, but they don't represent the club as far as acoustics, crowd, any special eq'ing, etc.. I prefer to rely on the FOH sound.
Author:  letitrip [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Mixing in cups (headphones) is never a replacement for FOH mixing. In some cases it becomes a necessity but I usually try to avoid those situations. There are a couple characteristics you have to account for in your house mix that you can't replicate in headphones. First, and most important, are the acoustics of the room. Each room that you play treats sound in it's own unique way. Certain resonant frequencies can stand out in one room and the same frequencies could disappear completely in another. You also need to account for the frequency response curve of your speakers. Just like room acoustics, each speaker treats different frequencies in its own way. So you need to account for this in your mix as well. And finally there is the dispersion pattern of your speakers. The sound from your speakers travels at specific angles (this affects higher frequencies more than lower) and that can affect how things sound in different parts of the rooms.

So I guess what I'm saying is what you're experiencing is completely normal, mixing in headphones never works as well as mixing from FOH. With practice you can become skilled enough to recognize how to get it close using headphones but its still no replacement for mixing with an ear on the house.
Author:  jr2423 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Lonman @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:13 pm wrote:
… I have tried several models including my AKG K240's which are great sounding cans, but they don't represent the club as far as acoustics, crowd, any special eq'ing, etc.. I prefer to rely on the FOH sound.


letitrip @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:52 pm wrote:
...So I guess what I'm saying is what you're experiencing is completely normal, mixing in headphones never works as well as mixing from FOH. With practice you can become skilled enough to recognize how to get it close using headphones but it’s still no replacement for mixing with an ear on the house.


I agree, and I prefer the mixing to FOH as well. It was only during the live recording where I experienced the difficulty. So I’m happy to hear you gentlemen confirm that what I’ve experienced is normal. It's difficult to troubleshoot something when I don't know what normal operation is to begin with; so this is validation.
Author:  Moonrider [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Using headphones to mix?

Short answer: Don't do it!

Longer answer: What you hear in headphones isn't what it sounds like in the room. Don't do it!

Techie answer. Headphones don't even come close to reproducing the comb filtering and standing wave effects caused by reflection, diffraction and absorption of sound waves in a normal venue. For those who are running a stereo mix, all of the above applies, and you're using a totally artificial and unrealistic stereo image.

If you're mixing using headphones, you have absolutely NO idea what the audience is hearing, or the singers are hearing. DON'T DO IT!
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
When faced with the choice of mixing with headphones, or what I can hear from behind the PA, I'll take the headphones every time. If you would like to mix based on the FoH sound from two feet behind my rig, be my guest; but when the goal is to hit 100dB SPL at 100 feet ... your ears won't last long two feet away.
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:42 pm wrote:
When faced with the choice of mixing with headphones, or what I can hear from behind the PA, I'll take the headphones every time. If you would like to mix based on the FoH sound from two feet behind my rig, be my guest; but when the goal is to hit 100dB SPL at 100 feet ... your ears won't last long two feet away.

If I am in a position not to hear the FOH mix (which I try not to do), the headphones are the only alternative, however I don't rely on them & will walk out & listen, then make readjustments. The headphones will never give an accurate representation of the actual club.
Or get
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/ ... sku=421186
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
I have mixed in places where "walk out and listen" was totally impossible as well. My favorite example is a local club that lets in so many customers that walking through the room is an exercise in diplomacy. If I don't have a good mix position and it's not easy to walk around, I use headphones.
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:51 pm wrote:
I have mixed in places where "walk out and listen" was totally impossible as well. My favorite example is a local club that lets in so many customers that walking through the room is an exercise in diplomacy. If I don't have a good mix position and it's not easy to walk around, I use headphones.

Again, better than nothing, but not an accurate representation of what the room is actually hearing is all i'm saying. They are getting a direct clean signal void of any room acoustics or any other room factor.
Author:  Moonrider [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:42 pm wrote:
When faced with the choice of mixing with headphones, or what I can hear from behind the PA, I'll take the headphones every time. If you would like to mix based on the FoH sound from two feet behind my rig, be my guest; but when the goal is to hit 100dB SPL at 100 feet ... your ears won't last long two feet away.


I get up on my feet and walk around the venue. It's good exercise and lets me talk with the clients.

I sincerely hope you're exaggerating about your sound levels.

If you're shooting for 100 db at 100 feet, and you're not in an outdoor venue, then you're a dangerous fool with absolutely no regard for the safety and health of your clients and customers.

That means you're hitting 114 db (rock concert levels) 20 feet away at the back of the room.

You're subjecting people on the dance floor (5 to 10 feet away) to 120 to 126 decibels. Pain starts at 125 decibels.

It's physically uncomfortable for most people to endure 90 to 100 decibels for more than a few minutes. Enduring 100 decibels for more than 2 hours without hearing protection may cause permanent hearing damage. At 115 decibels the damage starts in 15 minutes.

When you take into account the combining effects of standing waves in a room you can easily hit spot levels of up to 180 decibels, which kills hearing tissue in seconds.

Please tell me you're not really stupid enough to run these kinds of levels indoors!
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Moonrider @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:13 pm wrote:
I sincerely hope you're exaggerating about your sound levels.

No, outdoor gig.
Author:  Moonrider [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:47 pm wrote:
Moonrider @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:13 pm wrote:
I sincerely hope you're exaggerating about your sound levels.

No, outdoor gig.


Whew. :biggrinthumb: good.
Author:  ripman8 [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Moonrider @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:13 pm wrote:
jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:42 pm wrote:
When faced with the choice of mixing with headphones, or what I can hear from behind the PA, I'll take the headphones every time. If you would like to mix based on the FoH sound from two feet behind my rig, be my guest; but when the goal is to hit 100dB SPL at 100 feet ... your ears won't last long two feet away.


I get up on my feet and walk around the venue. It's good exercise and lets me talk with the clients.

I sincerely hope you're exaggerating about your sound levels.

If you're shooting for 100 db at 100 feet, and you're not in an outdoor venue, then you're a dangerous fool with absolutely no regard for the safety and health of your clients and customers.

That means you're hitting 114 db (rock concert levels) 20 feet away at the back of the room.

You're subjecting people on the dance floor (5 to 10 feet away) to 120 to 126 decibels. Pain starts at 125 decibels.

It's physically uncomfortable for most people to endure 90 to 100 decibels for more than a few minutes. Enduring 100 decibels for more than 2 hours without hearing protection may cause permanent hearing damage. At 115 decibels the damage starts in 15 minutes.

When you take into account the combining effects of standing waves in a room you can easily hit spot levels of up to 180 decibels, which kills hearing tissue in seconds.

Please tell me you're not really stupid enough to run these kinds of levels indoors!



Name calling not necessary to get points across.
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
I didn't think his post was in any way offensive. It's not like he brought up my mother or anything. :lol:
Author:  karyoker [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
LOL Ive been in a couple of venues that the acoustics were so screwed up I had to pu ton the cans to hear what the mix was!! I sometimes use them when the crowd noise is excessive but in the above situations a little tweak doesnt do much anyway.
Author:  Moonrider [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
ripman8 @ Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:45 am wrote:
Moonrider @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:13 pm wrote:

I get up on my feet and walk around the venue. It's good exercise and lets me talk with the clients.

I sincerely hope you're exaggerating about your sound levels.

If you're shooting for 100 db at 100 feet, and you're not in an outdoor venue, then you're a dangerous fool with absolutely no regard for the safety and health of your clients and customers.

That means you're hitting 114 db (rock concert levels) 20 feet away at the back of the room.

You're subjecting people on the dance floor (5 to 10 feet away) to 120 to 126 decibels. Pain starts at 125 decibels.

It's physically uncomfortable for most people to endure 90 to 100 decibels for more than a few minutes. Enduring 100 decibels for more than 2 hours without hearing protection may cause permanent hearing damage. At 115 decibels the damage starts in 15 minutes.

When you take into account the combining effects of standing waves in a room you can easily hit spot levels of up to 180 decibels, which kills hearing tissue in seconds.

Please tell me you're not really stupid enough to run these kinds of levels indoors!



Name calling not necessary to get points across.


If . . . then . . . statements are conditional. Jeff seemed to realize that and pointed out those levels were for an outdoor gig, which meant the IF condition was false and didn't apply to him, so neither did the "dangerous fool" or "stupid" appellation

That still doesn't change the fact that ANYONE who runs those kinds of levels INDOORS is a dangerous fool with absolutely no regard for the safety and health of his/her clients and customers.

Do you feel those levels WOULD be appropriate indoors?
Author:  jerry12x [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
jeffsw6 @ Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:42 pm wrote:
When faced with the choice of mixing with headphones, or what I can hear from behind the PA,


Wish my ears were that good.
To me cans sound nothing like FOH & I cant do the sound from behind FOH.
If I cant hear what I am doing I get stressed.

If I cant get out front it's someone elses gig.
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
Moonrider @ Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:21 pm wrote:
Do you feel those levels WOULD be appropriate indoors?

All depends on the size of the venue in question - layout, etc.
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Headphones In The Mix
jerry12x @ Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:53 pm wrote:
Wish my ears were that good.
To me cans sound nothing like FOH & I cant do the sound from behind FOH.

Maybe my speaker/venue combos are easier than yours? I can't do (@$%&#!) from behind FoH either, because of stage wash as much as bad position; but headphones are not too tough. It's not my preference, of course; but I do better with headphones than without. I have considered buying another EQ and a headphone amp, and making some adjustments to get the cans to sound more like the FoH; but ultimately I thought this would be a waste of time that can be better spent making the FoH sound better in the venue.
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