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Mackie system
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Author:  kenpat [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Mackie system

I have a mackie cfx12, 2mackie sm450's, and 1 mackie srs 1500 sub,,also using bbe882I( with xlr in and out), Lexicon mx200 using aux 2, gem sound echo using efx send and return. how do I hook this stuff up (make it simple please) thanks

Author:  Lonman [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

kenpat @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:03 am wrote:
I have a mackie cfx12, 2mackie sm450's, and 1 mackie srs 1500 sub,,also using bbe882I( with xlr in and out), Lexicon mx200 using aux 2, gem sound echo using efx send and return. how do I hook this stuff up (make it simple please) thanks


Get some long mic cords & run the from the main XLR out L&R to each SRM450. Run another long mic cord from the SUB XLR out to the SRS1500.
Get 2 insert cables (http://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSSTP20) or if you wanted to utilize the XLR connections (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/IPTBQXFXM5/) & connect the single ends into the "MAIN INSERT" on the mixer. The TIP ends will go to the input on the BBE, the RING end will go to the output on the BBE. Lexicon using EFX 2 (don't use the Aux), then send the EFX 2 send of the mixer to the input on the Lexicon, & run the outputs to Stereo Effects 2 return on the mixer. Don't know what the Gem sound piece is but you can do the same with EFX 1/Stereo Effects 1 - this will bypass the internal effects.

Author:  Lynn Blakely [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Note: Some of us may know what each of those models represent. Other wise to assist
we need to know what each piece is i.e. What is the bbe882? What is the Lexicon MX200
What is the Mackie CFX12? etc. Otherwise we would have to go to the manufacturers site and look up this stuff. BTW I do know what the SM450's are and the SRS1500 is.
This is not intended offend just assist someone who is trying to help with the question
of hooking it all together. If I had all this stuff in front of me I could hook it all up. Also
it helps to know how to bypass a piece if necessary, some time the unit has a button on the control panel to do that, some times it can be done on the mixer in the effects send
receive. Give us a little more info and that will save those willing to help some time.
Thanks. Lynn B retired electronics technician.

Author:  Lonman [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lynn Blakely @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:39 am wrote:
Note: Some of us may know what each of those models represent. Other wise to assist
we need to know what each piece is i.e. What is the bbe882? What is the Lexicon MX200
What is the Mackie CFX12? etc. Otherwise we would have to go to the manufacturers site and look up this stuff. BTW I do know what the SM450's are and the SRS1500 is.
This is not intended offend just assist someone who is trying to help with the question
of hooking it all together. If I had all this stuff in front of me I could hook it all up.

The BBE 882 is a Sonic Maximizer - sound enhancement, kind of like a basic eq, but more of a frequency re-alignment processor. The MX200 is an effects processor adding delay/reverb/etc... The CFX12 is a mixing console.

Author:  jeffsw6 [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lonman @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:33 pm wrote:
The BBE 882 is a Sonic Maximizer - sound enhancement, kind of like a basic eq, but more of a frequency re-alignment processor.

Okay, I have to bite on that technical term. What is a "frequency re-alignment processor?"

Author:  Lonman [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

jeffsw6 @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:58 pm wrote:
Lonman @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:33 pm wrote:
The BBE 882 is a Sonic Maximizer - sound enhancement, kind of like a basic eq, but more of a frequency re-alignment processor.

Okay, I have to bite on that technical term. What is a "frequency re-alignment processor?"

It takes the highs/mids/lows & adds a time shift to each frequency group by adding a slight delay to each group (lows up to 150hz, mids 150hz-1200 & the highs from1200 hz on up) allowing them project (the frequency waves) from the speakers more efficiently for the listener - essentially re-aligning the frequencies to come out more natural to the speaker. This is how BBE used to describe it anyway in an old pamphlet I had on the 422.
The older model BBE's like the 422 also had a better idea of how it was working with 3 LED lights that would tell you how/when it was changing the frequencies over todays model that just have an output level meter.

Author:  Lynn Blakely [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Thanks for sharing your inventory of knowledge. That The BBE 882 Sonic Maximizer is
a new gadget I haven't heard of. Me being a technician I am interested in an effects
processor that can change a persons voice to sound like someone else. I heard the one
that is in a Yamaha psr 7000 on U tube. I'll try to find the link to it on U Tube.

Author:  Hank Singer [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lynn Blakely @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:17 pm wrote:
Thanks for sharing your inventory of knowledge. That The BBE 882 Sonic Maximizer is
a new gadget I haven't heard of. Me being a technician I am interested in an effects
processor that can change a persons voice to sound like someone else. I heard the one
that is in a Yamaha psr 7000 on U tube. I'll try to find the link to it on U Tube.


Let me know when you find that processor, I want to sound like the singer in "bare naked ladies" :)

Author:  jeffsw6 [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lonman @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:15 pm wrote:
It takes the highs/mids/lows & adds a time shift to each frequency group by adding a slight delay to each group (lows up to 150hz, mids 150hz-1200 & the highs from1200 hz on up) allowing them project (the frequency waves) from the speakers more efficiently for the listener - essentially re-aligning the frequencies to come out more natural to the speaker. This is how BBE used to describe it anyway in an old pamphlet I had on the 422.

Why is that good? Speaker companies making high-end powered or integrated (DSP, amps, speakers sold together) PA systems spend a lot of time and money getting their various drivers to produce a coherent wavefront for the listener even though some drivers may be deeper within cabinets or waveguides than others.

I don't doubt that is what you read in BBE marketing materials ... but I do question why delaying some passbands would be good. How does the box decide when it is appropriate? How much delay can it add? Surely not much or you would notice the delay going on and off as an audible pitch change in the program material.

Author:  Lynn Blakely [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Hi Lonman & Hank Singer & everyone else. LOL. It took me a while but I found the demo and more. Here's the demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXeE2YZL ... re=related
Yamaha calls it Vocal Harmony. Some one posted that another company makes a better one, the company is TC-Helicon. I am sure that's not all of the rest of the story.
I don't know about other companies products but Yamaha has true Karaoke on some of
their keyboards, it even has VGA or maybe SVGA output I didn't check all that out yet.
They also have direct connection to songs to download from their site, probably not free. So I hope this solves the mystery, as Watson would say.
Lynn B. retired technician

Author:  Lonman [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lynn Blakely @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:17 pm wrote:
That The BBE 882 Sonic Maximizer is
a new gadget I haven't heard of.

Surprised, the Sonic Maximizer has been around since the mid-late 80's.

Author:  Lonman [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

jeffsw6 @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:54 pm wrote:
Lonman @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:15 pm wrote:
It takes the highs/mids/lows & adds a time shift to each frequency group by adding a slight delay to each group (lows up to 150hz, mids 150hz-1200 & the highs from1200 hz on up) allowing them project (the frequency waves) from the speakers more efficiently for the listener - essentially re-aligning the frequencies to come out more natural to the speaker. This is how BBE used to describe it anyway in an old pamphlet I had on the 422.

Why is that good? Speaker companies making high-end powered or integrated (DSP, amps, speakers sold together) PA systems spend a lot of time and money getting their various drivers to produce a coherent wavefront for the listener even though some drivers may be deeper within cabinets or waveguides than others.

I don't doubt that is what you read in BBE marketing materials ... but I do question why delaying some passbands would be good. How does the box decide when it is appropriate? How much delay can it add? Surely not much or you would notice the delay going on and off as an audible pitch change in the program material.

Well here is the manual for the one that I originally referred to.
http://www.bbesound.com/pdfs/422_manual.pdf
It's not alot of delay, we're talking milliseconds. Page 3 explains what it does & how it works. "Frequency realigner" is my own coinage, but that is in essence what it does. It actually would probably be considered more in the aural exciter catagory.

Author:  Lonman [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lynn Blakely @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:55 pm wrote:
Hi Lonman & Hank Singer & everyone else. LOL. It took me a while but I found the demo and more. Here's the demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXeE2YZL ... re=related
Yamaha calls it Vocal Harmony. Some one posted that another company makes a better one, the company is TC-Helicon. I am sure that's not all of the rest of the story.
I don't know about other companies products but Yamaha has true Karaoke on some of
their keyboards, it even has VGA or maybe SVGA output I didn't check all that out yet.
They also have direct connection to songs to download from their site, probably not free. So I hope this solves the mystery, as Watson would say.
Lynn B. retired technician

Actually if you want a REALLY good one, look at the Eventide Ultra Harmonizer. One of the best out there, but the price puts it out of reach for karaoke shows. It's geared more for pro studio work. If you can find an older H3000SE model used, it's a killer processor - technically old for todays technology, but still very nice.

Author:  letitrip [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Lonman @ Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:23 am wrote:
jeffsw6 @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:54 pm wrote:
Lonman @ Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:15 pm wrote:
It takes the highs/mids/lows & adds a time shift to each frequency group by adding a slight delay to each group (lows up to 150hz, mids 150hz-1200 & the highs from1200 hz on up) allowing them project (the frequency waves) from the speakers more efficiently for the listener - essentially re-aligning the frequencies to come out more natural to the speaker. This is how BBE used to describe it anyway in an old pamphlet I had on the 422.

Why is that good? Speaker companies making high-end powered or integrated (DSP, amps, speakers sold together) PA systems spend a lot of time and money getting their various drivers to produce a coherent wavefront for the listener even though some drivers may be deeper within cabinets or waveguides than others.

I don't doubt that is what you read in BBE marketing materials ... but I do question why delaying some passbands would be good. How does the box decide when it is appropriate? How much delay can it add? Surely not much or you would notice the delay going on and off as an audible pitch change in the program material.

Well here is the manual for the one that I originally referred to.
http://www.bbesound.com/pdfs/422_manual.pdf
It's not alot of delay, we're talking milliseconds. Page 3 explains what it does & how it works. "Frequency realigner" is my own coinage, but that is in essence what it does. It actually would probably be considered more in the aural exciter catagory.


I do have to say, in this particular application the BBE is a waste and could actually hurt. The Mackie's already have the frequency alignment processing and necessary crossovers built in. From experience with each piece mentioned here, I have to say the Mackies actually do a really good job.

My suggestion would be skip the BBE all together, run the main outs from your CFX-12 to the L and R inputs on the Sub, then run the L and R high pass outputs from the sub to the inputs on your SRM-450s. I don't recommend using the Sub out on the CFX-12, it is crossed over at 75Hz which is lower than I'd recommend for this setup. Let the SRS do a little more work, it's internal crossover is at 120Hz and with the 450's that a better point IMHO.

A couple other notes to correct some things that were said here that were inaccurate. EFX2 is shared with the internal effects on the CFX-12, not EFX1. Also, using EFX2 sends and returns does not bypass the internal effects unit. If you enable the internal effects and have effects being returned through the EFX2 return, the signals will be summed (mixed together) so you actually have the opportunity for up to 3 effects units that way (EFX1, EFX2 (Internal) and EFX2 (external)).

Author:  karyoker [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

All frequencies produce harmonics. An example of even harmonics is double the frequency IE a 1 KHZ tone will produce a 2 KHZ tone at a lower volume. The end result is all harmonics enrich the sound with the full effects.

When sound is compressed it is sliced and some harmonics are eliminated. With older recordings that had limited frequency response at the lower and higher ends it is more noticeable. When they are eliminated they cannnot be reproduced. The BBE does a fairly good job of reintroducing some of the lower harmonics. Unless the gain structure is out of balance the BBE will have no effect on live sound. The harmonics are there already in their true form.

If you are playing oldies the BBE and the Aphex are an integral part of your system. With karaoke they can make a difference with poor audio that is compressed although at crowd volumes it is almost undetectable.

Cabaret Karaoke has all the oldies and big band hits. also old classic rock and roll from the fifties. With our system we make them sound "live" with quality sound reproduction equiptment. It is not magic it is just experience.

Author:  jeffsw6 [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

I was going to post a long rant on the Sonic Maximizer, but I had to erase it and keep it simple. A/B that thing vs the original content. Sometimes it will sound a little better if you pay close attention. Sometimes it will sound a lot worse. Why bother with it?

And a Sonic Maximizer certainly does do "something" to live program material. What, I don't know, but I saw a band last night that had one inserted on the main mix. It sounded like (@$%&#!). The guitar was shrill and piercing and painful at times, and the vocals were buried. Bypassing it was a large improvement.

I have heard the Sonic Maximizer can be useful as an insert on a single channel. This may be true, but I won't use one on a whole mix anytime soon, or on recorded tracks.

Author:  karyoker [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Quote:
I was going to post a long rant on the Sonic Maximizer, but I had to erase it and keep it simple. A/B that thing vs the original content. Sometimes it will sound a little better if you pay close attention. Sometimes it will sound a lot worse. Why bother with it?

And a Sonic Maximizer certainly does do "something" to live program material. What, I don't know, but I saw a band last night that had one inserted on the main mix. It sounded like (@$%&#!). The guitar was shrill and piercing and painful at times, and the vocals were buried. Bypassing it was a large improvement.

I have heard the Sonic Maximizer can be useful as an insert on a single channel. This may be true, but I won't use one on a whole mix anytime soon, or on recorded tracks.


As an engineer who has installed many sound systems please refer to the above post. It explains in simple terms what simple audio procs do and their limitations. I do know wha6t i am talking about. This is the main reason I do not post in the tech forum anymore.

Author:  karyoker [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

Degree

Author:  Lonman [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

letitrip @ Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:45 am wrote:
My suggestion would be skip the BBE all together, run the main outs from your CFX-12 to the L and R inputs on the Sub, then run the L and R high pass outputs from the sub to the inputs on your SRM-450s. I don't recommend using the Sub out on the CFX-12, it is crossed over at 75Hz which is lower than I'd recommend for this setup. Let the SRS do a little more work, it's internal crossover is at 120Hz and with the 450's that a better point IMHO.
I was just simplifying the connection, but yes going through the sub would be better off altogether. However, I have used the Sub out on mine & it actually works very well in some situations so he should try both ways.

Quote:
A couple other notes to correct some things that were said here that were inaccurate. EFX2 is shared with the internal effects on the CFX-12, not EFX1. Also, using EFX2 sends and returns does not bypass the internal effects unit. If you enable the internal effects and have effects being returned through the EFX2 return, the signals will be summed (mixed together) so you actually have the opportunity for up to 3 effects units that way (EFX1, EFX2 (Internal) and EFX2 (external)).

You are correct. EFX 1 is the external & EFX 2 is the internal, my bad. I was thinking of another unit that byspasses once plugged in. He would need to hit the bypass switch on the internal effects on the mixer, this opens up the loop for external effects with no conflicts - but as said can be used in conjunction with the internal as well for an added layered effect or something else.

Author:  Lonman [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mackie system

jeffsw6 @ Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:47 am wrote:
And a Sonic Maximizer certainly does do "something" to live program material. What, I don't know, but I saw a band last night that had one inserted on the main mix. It sounded like <span style=font-size:10px><i>(@$%&#!)</i></span>. The guitar was shrill and piercing and painful at times, and the vocals were buried. Bypassing it was a large improvement.

Then it was definitely set wrong. That's the problem with these things, most inexperienced people use them as bass & treble controls & crank them up as such which will cause the sound you describe.

Quote:
I have heard the Sonic Maximizer can be useful as an insert on a single channel. This may be true, but I won't use one on a whole mix anytime soon, or on recorded tracks.

If it's set correctly, it will help alot of systems, although for using it on the main mix - if you have nice components to begin with, proper power, good speakers etc, you really do not need one in the chain.
As for recordings, it really can brighten up older recordings - I use one when I copy my old recordings to the computer, especially tapes.

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