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Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
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Author:  johnreynolds [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
A local kj down the street had an ASCAP representative unknowingly visit her venue in june of this year and logged 6 karaoke songs that are supposed on their "list" of artists they represent.

This particular venue has been operated for 6 years, is very popular, and has offered karaoke sine its inception. The owner previously had never heard of ASCAP or BMI or SESAC until this week.

According to her (the kj) formal papers have been served to the owners by ASCAP citing the 6 songs, time and dates they were played, with a fine of $2,000 per song totaling $12,000. ASCAP is also seeking $1800 a year in membership fees for the venue.

-needless to say the kj is afraid of losing her gig and the bar owner isn't sure what to do, other than pay the membership to avoid future fines.

Does anyone know if ASCAP negotiates these fines or ever has? What would you do or say to the owners??

Thank you for all advice and opinions in advance. -john
Author:  jamkaraoke [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Unfortunately if the owners want any entertainment ( bands / juke boxe / karaoke) they'll have to pay the required costs themselves. EVERYTHING is negotiable and I suggest that if the owner wants to keep karaoke they make a deal to wash out the fines and pay a smaller yearly fee. NO ONE wants a lawsuit and or charges etc.

THE WILL NEGOTIATE and the fees and fines are based on a calculation using size of venue number of seats and customers etc. The owners should ask for all the DETAILS to review.

I would like to know what FORMAL papers were served --COURT DOCUMENTS?
or just some LETTER HEAD listing the problems ???
Author:  Lonman [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Well they need to pay it. They can probably get the fine reduced to a minimum - if not to 0 - however they may just have them back date the service to the beginning of karaoke - I have seen that in the past. Technically - even if the bar runs a tv, they are supposed to be paying these organization - not JUST karaoke.
Author:  karaoke koyote [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Lonman @ Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:08 am wrote:
Well they need to pay it. They can probably get the fine reduced to a minimum - if not to 0 - however they may just have them back date the service to the beginning of karaoke - I have seen that in the past. Technically - even if the bar runs a tv, they are supposed to be paying these organization - not JUST karaoke.



Well, the $12,000 fine seems a little excessive. From what I've seen around here... and ASCAP and BMI are very prevalent, the size of the venue and the frequency of performances makes a difference in the fee. The one bar I work at is small, with a 60 seat capacity and the ASCAP fee is about $280 a year.

Larger venues pay more, so I would say your bar owner can afford it... and should pay it. There are many benefits to doing so. As a karaoke KJ you should educate yourself about this, and explain it to the owner... and encourage him to open a dialogue with them. Like Lonman said, in all likelihood he could have the fine reduced or even eliminated.

He's got to pay the fee if he wants ANY type of musical entertainment... even a jukebox or just a radio... and getting rid of you won't change that. Now that they are aware, they won't be leaving him alone, so he can choose to have no music playing in the bar whatsoever, or pay the fee. Whether your there or not makes no difference. :D
Author:  johnreynolds [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Thanks for the replies so far friends.

Jam, i will find out later today after going by exactly what kind of papers they were served with and post.

Lon, i will mention that these fines can be negotiated after joining and possibly back-dating their karaoke show.

Koyote, i printed more info about ASCAP and will give it to the owner and kj tonight before my own show starts. It was the negotiation of the imposed fines for those 6 karaoke tracks i wasn't sure was likely or possible and didn't want to assume anything. The venue seats 300 and they have bands, djs, vjs, karaoke, satellite music, pay-per-view events, etc...

I would've thought that they would have made a sronger case if they had listed 6 DJ songs instead. Or the cable music or music videos.. Or even the band doing a cover song. But Karaoke? Harder to track artists and publishers, no??? STRANGE...

The fact is ASCAP/BMI hadn't really put any effort in enforcement in the past on these hawaiian islands...til now. Oh well, it's the cost of doing business. PLEASE KEEP THE ADVICE/OPINIONS COMING! -Mahalo
Author:  Babs [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
I would tell the bar owner to go to their websites(BMI and ASCAP) and find out exactly what he's dealing with.

The yearly fee includes not only karaoke, but TVs and bands.
Jukeboxes are different. The owner should find out if the jukebox company he is using is already paying BMI/ASCAP, most do, so he would be able to eliminate that from the fee. The fee is based on square footage and some bars are exempt from the fee all together because of size. I can't remember all the ins and outs, but they are clearly explained on their websites.

The others are correct in telling you, you can negotiate the fine and maybe have it eliminated altogether.
Author:  Dr Fred [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
I seriously wonder if someone can run a Bar for 6 years and not have heard of BMI/ASCAP.

They must throw away a lot of their mail or have an unlisted address and no advertising.

They also must have not talk much to owners of other bars or researched the costs involved when they went into business.

Sure some people try that route but they usually can't stay in business for 6 years because they broke other laws, or were unable to manage other important parts of running a business.
Author:  Lonman [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Dr Fred @ Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:58 pm wrote:
I seriously wonder if someone can run a Bar for 6 years and not have heard of BMI/ASCAP.

They must throw away a lot of their mail or have an unlisted address and no advertising.

They also must have not talk much to owners of other bars or researched the costs involved when they went into business.

Sure some people try that route but they usually can't stay in business for 6 years because they broke other laws, or were unable to manage other important parts of running a business.

I worked a place that had been in business for 5 years and never got any kind of mail nor correspondance of any kind from ASCAP UNTIL we put up a karaoke banner on the outside of the building. The next week he got a visit from a representative. They cancelled karaoke that night. They didn't last much longer after that.
Author:  johnreynolds [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Dr. Fred, we are discussing the HAWAIIAN ISLANDS here. The small rocks floating in the middle of the pacific ocean. Progress and enforcement of any kind takes awhile in paradise. TOO many people wanna SURF DAILY! :D
Author:  johnreynolds [ Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Babs thanks for the reply and info! :hug:
Author:  Babs [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
You are so welcome :hug:
Author:  johnreynolds [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Well i went to my fellow kj's venue tonight around 6pm and the owner wasn't there. According to the bartender he was meeting with his lawyer to discuss the fines, so i dropped off some literature about ASCAP i got off the internet.

The kj came in about 10 minutes later and said that lately she has visited other potential places just in case she gets "the boot" and she can't afford not to work. 2 kids and a deadbeat husband. :roll:

I explained to her that all of this is not her fault and that she needs to push the owner to pay the fees, negotiate the fines, and i can help her make new flyers and try and get more singers to her show so the bar can recoup the expenses. On my days off i'll bring some of my regulars there and we'll spend.

Since the owner wasn't there, i was not able to see what kind of papers he was served by ascap.
Author:  srnitynow [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Sounds like you're a great friend to have John, not too many people would go out of their way to help this person the way you are doing. KUDO'S to you.

Rosario
Srnitynow
Author:  Alex [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
srnitynow @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:43 am wrote:
Sounds like you're a great friend to have John, not too many people would go out of their way to help this person the way you are doing. KUDO'S to you.

Rosario
Srnitynow
I agree, seems you are indeed a nice fellow KJ to have. I hope, everything works out for all of you! :wink:
Author:  Avg Joe [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Real cool of you John. :D
Author:  Karen K [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
JR: Kind of friend everybody needs! Waydago!
Author:  Babs [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
John you're such a sweetheart.

It scares me he went to his lawyer though. Most lawyers don't have a clue about these things. My bar owner's attorney said he didn't have to pay the fine or the fees, just to ignore the letters. Aaaaarg!
Author:  Karen K [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
That makes me wonder about how tenacious they are about collecting - if they are open to negotiations, maybe it's just an issue of telling a place that they owe a HUGE amount but you can get them down to a few hundred dollars - they've got a few hundred dollars but not a hope in heck of collecting the originally stated amount? Why would an attorney say to ignore the letter?
Author:  Babs [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
I'm not sure Karen. The owner said his attorney was a copyright attorney and did legal services for well known bands. Now do I believe that to be true is another story. He honestly sounded like he had no clue what he was talking about because at first he tried to make me pay it. I brought print outs of information to him from the websites of BMI and ASCAP to prove it was not my responsibilty. I even called BMI. I also explained to him they will sue him not me. He tried to scare me into paying it by saying they came in and said they would sue me.

He was trying to figure out a way of not paying for the jukeboxes too, some crazy arguement. I showed him, not the attorney, where he didn't have to pay for them because the vender he was using already pays it. I found other useful info for him also about square footage because it is a small bar. I believe the beer garden in back was completely exempt from fees.

Any way, long story short - BMI and ASCAP will try to get as much money out of you as they can without making sure of other factors. Bars need to do their home work and make sure they aren't paying for more than they have too.
Author:  rumbolt [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice/Opinions needed for ASCAP monetary fines
Dr Fred @ Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:58 pm wrote:
I seriously wonder if someone can run a Bar for 6 years and not have heard of BMI/ASCAP.

They must throw away a lot of their mail or have an unlisted address and no advertising.

They also must have not talk much to owners of other bars or researched the costs involved when they went into business.

Sure some people try that route but they usually can't stay in business for 6 years because they broke other laws, or were unable to manage other important parts of running a business.


Ascap just recently contacted a locar bar owned by a good friend of mine and has been in business for over 10 years. This is his first encounter with ASCAP. He had no idea who they were.

Ascap has been making their presence known here in the Knoxville area over the last couple of months.
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