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| Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18313 |
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| Author: | jamkaraoke [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
Do you think that bars owners who are named in a law suit by Sound Choice and the like (even if they & they KJ are innocent) will walk away with a BAD FEELING for Karaoke in general and could even cancel karaoke ??? I know some owners that don't want the trouble...the last thing they need is someone else POKING in their business |
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| Author: | mrscott [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
Actually I think these lawsuits will have a negative ripple effect on the entire music industry, not just the bars and pirates will be affected. I could be wrong, but I am thinking that the bars in general will NOT want to do any kind of entertainment, including karaoke. One bar in a town that is about an hour and a half away has already done this, NO music of any type in the bar, no tv's no radios, NOTHING, and the bar is thriving on food and good service. They just refuse to give money to greedy organizations like ASCAP or BMI or anyone for that fact. This bar gives great prices on drinks and has incredible food, so why bother with paying fees to anyone. The lawsuits will make bars rethink how they provide any type of service at all. Some will go out of business being unable to change or conform to all the restrictions and fees that they are required to pay if they want to provide music as a form of entertainment. Just my little ole humble opinion. |
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| Author: | jdmeister [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
mrscott @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:44 am wrote: Actually I think these lawsuits will have a negative ripple effect on the entire music industry, not just the bars and pirates will be affected. I could be wrong, but I am thinking that the bars in general will NOT want to do any kind of entertainment, including karaoke. One bar in a town that is about an hour and a half away has already done this, NO music of any type in the bar, no tv's no radios, NOTHING, and the bar is thriving on food and good service. They just refuse to give money to greedy organizations like ASCAP or BMI or anyone for that fact. This bar gives great prices on drinks and has incredible food, so why bother with paying fees to anyone. The lawsuits will make bars rethink how they provide any type of service at all. Some will go out of business being unable to change or conform to all the restrictions and fees that they are required to pay if they want to provide music as a form of entertainment. Just my little ole humble opinion.
On the mark, Mr Scott.. Smaller bars work on a sliding profit.. (down) and anything they pay out, is off the top of the money pile.. Not good from where I sit.. I used to want a bar, but these days.. no.. |
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| Author: | jamkaraoke [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
That's what I'm thinking, bars will just go back to simple entertainment ..pool table and dart boards don't cost anything ( pool tables are revenue makers). We've already seen when bars are forced to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars in apscam or bsi fees that they can take the money right of the karaoke budget. Either cutting the pay or finding a cheap KJ. ( Don't believe that every KJ that works for $75 is a pirate) |
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| Author: | leopard lizard [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
We may see some of that but it might come from bars that couldn't afford to have music legally anyway. ASCAP/BMI may indeed be exhorbitant and unfortunately Sound Choice is being lumped in with that kind of "greed." But so far none of their suits have asked for huge damages. They have mainly asked for payment for what has been stolen. I think a restructuting of ASCAP/BMI is more important to keeping music in small places rather than Sound Choice not persuing their suits. Our bar owner wanted to dump everything when he first got a "letter" but in the end he just asked one host to show his discs or hit the road. If a bar owner can't afford to hire a host with a legal library than I would rather they stick to pool and darts than all of us have to turn a blind eye because we fear karaoke won't be anywhere and everywhere. Will be interesting to see how this Tennessee situation pans out. Supposedly Sound Choice had been sending several letters to these bars giving them the opportunity to clear things up before actually serving papers. Wonder how it got fouled up here? |
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| Author: | Lonman [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
If the bar is completely legal, I doubt it would have a bad taste, I think most of them would be pretty damn proud that they 'beat' the big guys alligations & would capitalize on it somehow. |
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| Author: | rumbolt [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
mrscott @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:44 am wrote: Actually I think these lawsuits will have a negative ripple effect on the entire music industry, not just the bars and pirates will be affected. I could be wrong, but I am thinking that the bars in general will NOT want to do any kind of entertainment, including karaoke. One bar in a town that is about an hour and a half away has already done this, NO music of any type in the bar, no tv's no radios, NOTHING, and the bar is thriving on food and good service. They just refuse to give money to greedy organizations like ASCAP or BMI or anyone for that fact. This bar gives great prices on drinks and has incredible food, so why bother with paying fees to anyone. The lawsuits will make bars rethink how they provide any type of service at all. Some will go out of business being unable to change or conform to all the restrictions and fees that they are required to pay if they want to provide music as a form of entertainment. Just my little ole humble opinion.
I agree with what you say and there will be a knee jerk reaction by some bar owners and we might suffer in the beninning but as soon as the bar(s) realize that they need some form of entertainment to keep the customers and to survive. We will be back stronger than before if the bar does it's due dillagence (I probably misspelled that word) and make sure the KJ is following the rules. Jus my 2 cents Hal |
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| Author: | rumbolt [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
Lonman @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:17 pm wrote: If the bar is completely legal, I doubt it would have a bad taste, I think most of them would be pretty gosh darn proud that they 'beat' the big guys alligations & would capitalize on it somehow.
I agree! Let the bar and Sound Choice work it out. Maybe the next bar named will respond to the initial letter in a timely fashion even if they are completly legal to save the headaches that Mcleod's and thse KJ are going through. Lesson for today, Don't ignore your mail. I have heard of several venues here in Knoxville that have ended up paying ASCAP after losing in court (and usually more than they (ascap) originally asked for. I don't know the details since the filings are sealed. |
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| Author: | tovmod [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
Quote: Lonman
Post Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:17 am If the bar is completely legal, I doubt it would have a bad taste, I think most of them would be pretty damn proud that they 'beat' the big guys alligations & would capitalize on it somehow. there has been a least one situation of unjustified accusations having been made by SC against a KJ and, hence, the bar where he worked. The erroneous accusations made the local news; the acknowledgment that SC made an error when they levied their charges received no where near the news exposure that the allegations received. If I were the falsely accused KJ and had to deal with the legal response and emotional fall out caused by SC I would sue for libel, or slander or whatever the law would allow. There is ALWAYS harm done when someones integrity and honesty is brought into question, particularly when that person owns a local business and has nothing more to offer than his reputation. |
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| Author: | leopard lizard [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
That article was confusing. It states right at the top that Sound Choice is going to drop their suit because they mistook a CAVs music playing unit for a karaoke machine. Then it quotes the Sound Choice lawyer as saying he believes the suit still has merit. Then they quote the bar owner saying that Sound Choice still wants to come in and audit the music collection. It is difficult to figure out exactly WHAT is going on in this situation. |
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| Author: | tovmod [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
leopard lizard @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:02 am wrote: That article was confusing. It states right at the top that Sound Choice is going to drop their suit because they mistook a CAVs music playing unit for a karaoke machine. Then it quotes the Sound Choice lawyer as saying he believes the suit still has merit. Then they quote the bar owner saying that Sound Choice still wants to come in and audit the music collection. It is difficult to figure out exactly WHAT is going on in this situation.
Maybe Soundchoice, realizes that they made a major blunder when they accused McGaha of piracy and that they have by doing so left themselves open for a suit by McGaha alleging that he was slandered (or whatever) by Soundchoice? That being the case, SC would have nothing to lose by continuing to pursue McGaha in what would amount to a witch hunt. And in doing so, if they should find even one illegal track, they can justify their original claim. If it were me, aside from suing SC for defamation, I would make them take me through the court system and let them prove that I AM illegal rather than making me prove to them beforehand that I am not illegal! |
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| Author: | leopard lizard [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
Who did the worse defaming? Sound Choice for bringing suit or the TV station for publicizing it as if it were a done deal? |
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| Author: | tovmod [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
leopard lizard @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:31 pm wrote: Who did the worse defaming? Sound Choice for bringing suit or the TV station for publicizing it as if it were a done deal?
Now, you're not suggesting that a news organization can only speak about suits and trials and defendants and allegations AFTER the defendant has been judged? Are you? And do you believe that the TV station Rumboldt was involved with was the only news outlet in the local area that covered what SC is doing? And let's put on a "businessman's hat" and wonder if SC is simply interested in collecting some (nominal) fees from a handful of pirates or in also getting publicity regarding their efforts. Might SC hope that the publicity will put the "fear of god" in the minds of pirates? In at least one post I have encountered made directly by SC on another forum. they want pirates to be aware of what they (SC) are doing with the hopes that some will come forward on their own. And just imagine how much money and effort it would save SC if 100 or 1000 presented themselves to SC to get cleansed based upon the awareness spread throughout the industry of what SC is attempting! |
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| Author: | leopard lizard [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
I think I asked a question rather than suggested anything. I still don't think we have all the info on this as far as jumping to conclusions as to how things were done or what will come from this. There is just something weird about it all. As far as the Sound Choice PR plan, it wasn't them that contacted the media this time, it was Rumbolt wasn't it? And Chartbuster jumped in on it also. |
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| Author: | diafel [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
tovmod @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:26 pm wrote: If it were me, aside from suing SC for defamation, I would make them take me through the court system and let them prove that I AM illegal rather than making me prove to them beforehand that I am not illegal!
And it looks like this may be the way to go. I've rediscovered an interesting web page regarding copyright and trademark law. Now, granted, this page has more to do with the webmaster selling items made from licensed fabrics and patterns on eBay and their experience fighting cease and desist letters and lawsuits regarding such, but I believe the applicable laws to be one and the same with the laws that are applied here, and the statistics quoted are applicable here as well. Here's the page: http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/Tra ... kLaw.shtml And here's a page describing what I believe Sound Choice to be doing and why I have a problem with it: http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/Tra ... tion.shtml I thinks it's a good explanation. As for the OP: I think there may be some bars that may shut down karaoke completely, but I have a hard time believing and bar can survive without at least SOME kind of music. It would be a arare case, indeed! I think owners may shut down karaoke hoping to save some bucks, not realizing that it could be as little as $12 (in Canada) more per year to have Karaoke AND other forms of music as well. |
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| Author: | rumbolt [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
tovmod @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:42 pm wrote: Quote: Lonman Post Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:17 am If the bar is completely legal, I doubt it would have a bad taste, I think most of them would be pretty gosh darn proud that they 'beat' the big guys alligations & would capitalize on it somehow. there has been a least one situation of unjustified accusations having been made by SC against a KJ and, hence, the bar where he worked. The erroneous accusations made the local news; the acknowledgment that SC made an error when they levied their charges received no where near the news exposure that the allegations received. If I were the falsely accused KJ and had to deal with the legal response and emotional fall out caused by SC I would sue for libel, or slander or whatever the law would allow. There is ALWAYS harm done when someones integrity and honesty is brought into question, particularly when that person owns a local business and has nothing more to offer than his reputation. The bar in question was served intent to sue paperwork via certified delivery and the bar never responded so Sound Choice had no option but to proceed to protect their interest. If the paper trail is verfied by the courts, the bar won't have much to proceed with litigation. That's how the legal system works. Civil court is very different in that you are guilty until proven innocent. In a former business I was involved in a patent dispute several years ago with another manufacturer who copied and knocked off a component of ours. They ignored our letters then court filings and as a result we were awarded the win by default. They claimed that they were never notified and threatened to sue us but the judge threw it out of court since we could provide a paper trail. |
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| Author: | rumbolt [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
leopard lizard @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:31 pm wrote: Who did the worse defaming? Sound Choice for bringing suit or the TV station for publicizing it as if it were a done deal?
The tv station never said the Mcleods case was done. Only one bar settled, Blue Chips. They were just presenting a case that was pending. If it is public record and filed in court I think the station and reporter are ok. |
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| Author: | rumbolt [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
tovmod @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:42 pm wrote: Quote: Lonman Post Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:17 am If the bar is completely legal, I doubt it would have a bad taste, I think most of them would be pretty gosh darn proud that they 'beat' the big guys alligations & would capitalize on it somehow. there has been a least one situation of unjustified accusations having been made by SC against a KJ and, hence, the bar where he worked. The erroneous accusations made the local news; the acknowledgment that SC made an error when they levied their charges received no where near the news exposure that the allegations received. If I were the falsely accused KJ and had to deal with the legal response and emotional fall out caused by SC I would sue for libel, or slander or whatever the law would allow. There is ALWAYS harm done when someones integrity and honesty is brought into question, particularly when that person owns a local business and has nothing more to offer than his reputation. In the original suit (I have seen the complete filing), McLeods (the bar) was named and when they received copy of the actual suit, Mcleods notified Sound Choice that they did not own the equipment in question and pointed the finger to the KJ. In my view, the bar should have let the kj know about the pending suit so any misunderstandings could be settled. I guess the bar doesn't have a phone to call the kj or at least have a quick meeting with the kj before the start of his show and to ask the right questions. |
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| Author: | InsaneKJ [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
Thanks rumbolt for keeping the facts straight. |
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| Author: | srnitynow [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bar owners Karaoke and Law Suits |
I may be WAY off base here, but from my point of view, something like this COULD kill karaoke especially in a SMALL town like I live in. All it takes is word to get around that "Hey, did you hear Joe is being sued, smoething about KARAOKE". The other bar owners aren't going to bother looking up (what it's all about), there just going to hear that it has something to do with not paying some organization FEES FOR KARAOKE. So for a company trying to get established, when you approach them, they are likely to say, "NAH, I've heard too many bad things about KARAOKE". I think if someone is going to stir up a hornet's nest, they should at least send out some type of information to ALL BARS. That way the owners are INFORMED, and can make a decision about KARAOKE based on KNOWLEDGE, not SPECULATION. The LAST thing a bar owner wants is a BAD REPUTATION, especially since it wouldn't have happened if he HADN'T HAVE HIRED THAT DAMN KARAOKE!!!. |
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