Karaoke Forums

I spoke with a fellow yesterday whose ad I had responded to -- he was looking for a couple of female backup singers for a gig he has upcoming. I have been a backup singer for years and out of curiosity I responded, as I am prone to do.

We spoke briefly about our musical history and experience. I should not be surprised that when I mentioned I owned a karaoke business, it was as if I could hear his jaw drop over the phone -- with disappointment.

He then proceeded with a diatribe about his opinions regarding the dreaded "k" word - karaoke. In spite of what I had told him regarding my background (professional musician, performance, etc., etc.) he as much as told me that anyone who would stand there and collect little pieces of paper with singers names and song titles scribbled on them, and let them get up in spite of their drunken state to slaughter songs, must really be a mental midget (in so many words). This guy is a typical disgruntled musician who spouted the usual garbage about how karaoke has destroyed the music business, to which I chuckled of course. The conversation stretched on for an hour or so (a waste of my time), at the end of which I basically told him that I was probably NOT the person he was looking for, even though I was a walk-on for what he was looking for. He said that I probably had TONS of female songers who would be able to do what he was looking for. I said probably not for free ... (DUH) ... he said they sing for nothing in the bars, why wouldn't they sing for nothing for him? After all this gig was only going to pay him $125 for the evening...he expected to get paid but not pay the singers. I laughed, told him I don't unload my equipment for that, which of course riled him some. When he finally took a breath, he then proceeded to tell me this: He uses MIDI FILES! He plays keyboard and uses MIDI to add other instruments and sing.

So, no matter how many times I told this dude that the caliber of singers I have at my shows rivals that of any of the top American Idol singers, and that nobody is drunk and slobbers on the mics, they know how to sing, and we do it for the enjoyment of entertaining one another and making money for the venue, he basically told me that anybody who does karaoke is a fool and an idiot. Mmmhhh, wasn't going to change his mind, or even try ...

Karen, I've heard the same things from musicians over my 30 year career as a mobile DJ...that we were putting live bands on hard times.

The fact is all live bands take breaks, most are notorious for not starting on time, usually travel with a whole "posse" of friends (who all want to eat and drink free), have a limited number of songs they know, have band members who don't show up, etc. When it comes to private events, most lead singers can't emcee or have any mic presence to save their lives. Yet they seem to have inordinately disproportionate egos.

It doesn't surprise me that a musician would have contempt for karaoke...after all there are probably more bad singers than good ones. Of course the concept of karaoke is that you are singing for YOU - because YOU enjoy it ... not for the crowd and not even because you may or may not be a good singer. That being said, there are plenty of great karaoke singers...certainly more than good enough to be a backup singer.

How does this guy explain the American Idol winners and runners up who were not previously in a band or making money from singing who became multi-platinum superstars? Or the quality of singers you'll find at the many karaoke contests around town?

As to whether this is a widespread misconception? Look at how the area's "Best karaoke bar" award-winner this year promotes itself:



Is making fun of ourselves actually furthering our own misconception?

As for this musician guy, sounds like you were more than courteous and forthcoming with this idiot. I don't have the patience for bitter, jealous and closed-minded people. Sounds like the furthest this guy will ever get is the corner of a local bar playing for tips with his midi files.

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[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
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If the "misconception" you are discussing has to do with karaoke shows and/or karaoke singers, WHAT IS THE MISCONCEPTION you are concerned with?


If a person believes that all karaoke shows are terrible - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that all or most singers at karaoke are terrible - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that all karaoke singers are drunk - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that all karaoke shows are about the singers only - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that a karaoke singer will sound better simply by improving the host's equipment - that may or may not be a misconception!

If a person believes that all karaoke shows take place in bars - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that all karaoke shows must be held in a bar or restaurant to be profitable - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that you should be a good singer before getting up to sing - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that an audience expects a singer to rehearse a song until it is "perfect" - that is a misconception!

If a person believes every karaoke song is produced to parallel the original hit - that is a misconception!

If a person (and they are out there) believes that they can listen to different versions of every karaoke track made and consistently choose the one that most parallels the original hit - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that karaoke singers chase other customers out of the venue - that may or may not be a misconception!

If a person (and they are out there) believes that they needn't spend any significant amount of money as a singer to support the venue at which they sing - that is a misconception!

If a person (and they are out there) believes that as a Kj they don't have to be aware of who is spending money and who isn't at their shows - that is a misconception!

If a person (and they are out there) believes as a KJ that the value of their show is reflected in the quality of the singers they attract - that is a misconception!

If a person (and they are out there) believes that as a KJ you must use a sub at a karaoke show - that is a misconception!

If a person believes that all venues, all audience members and all karaoke singers are equal in what they want in, appreciate from, and enjoy doing at karaoke - that is a misconception!

Sounds like this guy was just an EGOTISTICAL JERK. And probably NOT too good of an entertainer. Didn't mention if he played an instrument to accompany the midi files. I've played guitar, and sang in bars YEARS ago, and I still think KARAOKE is a great form of entertainment, it's like being the LEAD singer with a GOOD backup band. Sounds to me like HE IS a karaoke singer that doesn't use a monitor. EGO'S run in EVERY profession. One day he may get over himself.


Srnitynow

Yep, they are out there & here I am! I will argue this one until the cows come home. I am hired as the entertainment. Bartenders & waitresses are there to serve & 'be aware' of who is & isn't spending. If they then tell me not allow someone to sing because of it, then I will work with the bar at that point. When I played in bands or did club dj, we weren't expected to know who was and wasn't spending, no different with karaoke - just a different form of entertainment. I agree to a point - some dead on, on all your others.

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I don't even worry about it anymore. I get it all the time at my day job from my coworkers who are very much into following certain bands and musicians around. They sometimes make remarks like, "We went into this place and--my god--they had karaoke-------oh, but it was FUN," as they look at me.

Who cares? What they don't realize is that I get to have a chance to be on a stage and hold a mic in my hand with an amplified band behind me and do what those people they are worshipping do. May not be as good or on the same level but still--I get to be part of putting on a show which gives me a different appreciation of those who are really good at it--as for my friends, all they can do is buy tickets.

But really--karaoke is just for certain people and it usually weeds out a lot of the pretentious ones although it also sometimes breeds a few. But how long does an intolerant person with no sense of humor last at a show and who would you rather hang out with?

I like the OFinnigans sign! It says that we do raw karaoke, come as you are, and if you don't like it, bring earplugs. It's truth in advertising.

There are far more bad musicians than good ones, it is not just karaoke singers.



Of course it depends on the venue. One bar used to visit probably had 20 bands in a row that I disliked (I was usually leaving when the bands started). Other venues have a higher portion of good bands. It can be the same with karaoke, some shows have many good singers others are usually poor singers or drunks.

Yes you can and will disagree with that one point. But disagreeing "until the cows come home" reflects the bias of someone who has as much job security as any KJ could ever have! And props to you for your success!

KJ's starting new jobs and/or struggling to keep marginally workable jobs cant' ignore such matters! What KJ hasn't wondered how many people will show up that first night of a new gig? And if any of you do ignore that factor I'd like to know how you do it? I for one don't ignore that part of my "business equation"! I can't simply go on the conviction that I am the entertainment and have no responsibility or need to be concerned about "headcount".

And just because I see a "decent" size crowd at my first gig, or on any night at a marginal gig, I don't "relax". Decent size crowds don't put money in the till, crowds that spend money put money in the till.

And how would I know a job is marginal? Management doesn't always say anything while they are scrambling to replace you with something that will get the "ching" "ching" working. I know it is marginal or worse because I make it my responsibility to know!

I MUST pay attention to what's going on. I must consider how much (more) I am willing to invest (time, energy, money) in promoting a show. If I conclude it has little chance of lasting I need other irons in the fire and must be prepared to move on!

Ya see, Lon, it's different when you're struggling to make "karaoke ends" meet and recoup your investment of thousands. It's another thing when you're sitting "on high" for 5 years or more. Why WOULD you care whose spending what? You job is secure! And under your circumstances I would have the same attitude!

It's more than "truth in advertising".

How many of us have played venues where they can't even seem to keep 81/2 x 11 flyers visible that YOU had printed up to promote karaoke? Or how about those missing tent cards? Or the venue couldn't get a banner from the beer/liquor distributor to promote karaoke or any of their entertainment. Or they don't ask each night's entertainment to announce the entertainment schedule for the whole week?

I wish every place I played has a sign like O'Finnigan's! Any publicity is better than no publicity in this regard!

Dan said: "How does this guy explain the American Idol winners and runners up who were not previously in a band or making money from singing who became multi-platinum superstars? Or the quality of singers you'll find at the many karaoke contests around town? "

Dan is absolutely spot-on with this.

But add in ALL THE REGIONAL PAC NW front persons in the BLUES WORLD(and other genres) who started out as Karaoke singers, then became KJ's and now have started fronting thier own bands around PDX and I would say also Seattle, etc. Some whom have achieved national prominance. I can think of one in particular who did just that-LIV WARFIELD who has her own band --The Liv Warfield Project, sings back up with all the major Portland bands at the major Blues Festivals, TOURS WITH PRINCE (or the artist formerly known as Prince or whatever he is now) and when shes got time off goes out an does Karaoke--shes come in and sung at my shows or just dueted with me before as civilians.

So in a nutshell, this guy you spoke with is a DISGRUNTLED musician who really has NO CLUE as to the kind of talent that is out there. EVEN I took the plunge and have sung with 2 bands now---what I tell them is that I KJ and sing karaoke just to keep in practice and use it as a device to stay in tune and try out new songs so I dont get RUSYT!!
Most are down with that explanation.
And if they want to come here me as a demonstration or live try out on stage they are welcome to come see me at Karaoke!!

Youre guy is a narrow-minded knucklehead!!

Just pass him by.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

True the "value" of a KJ show may not be singer quality but it can be. Depending on the venue different bars and different shows attract different singing crowds. If the venue that you work at wants as a goal to dispel some of the karaoke myth that karaoke has to mean bad singers then the statement is false.

Some clubs really do target niches of the market and strive for quality singers.
It may fit a venue better for their target audience to bring in a crowd on the 1 karaoke night a week that will also stick around on the other nights of the week.

You can't measure the sucess of karaoke on the number of people in the door and nightly sales. Sometimes the bar has other concerns such as a reputation, and that is looking at long term sales.

Many bars style their weekly karaoke night to attract a crowd that will visit the other nights of the week. Depending on the target crowd, singing ability may be VERY important or not at all.

If your show depends on entertaining the audience, attracting quality singers is crucial.

Few people go out to see bad singers intentionally. So to keep a big karaoke crowd (and that is the value to the venue in dollars in the till) a big parKt of maintaining a long term good show is attracting good singers. The good singers in turn can attract an audience that wants to hear good singers.

Some shows do not view Karaoke as art and entertainment, but many do.

Not to say that it is the ONLY factor, but it can be big.

On the contrary, spending is not the only thing a customer brings to a venue.

For example I have the case where an individual was a regular at a bar and probably was one of the highest spenders there, because he drank constantly and was always there. Unfortunatley this person had a personality that made him engage in conversations with people that were annoying, and he did drive away other customers so that his net impact on bar profit was negative. He never did anything offensive, rude or violent but he told the most boring stories on earth.

When this person moved away, the bartenders/owners were jokeing about having a celibration party. (his nickname was "books on tape" for his long boring stories).

On the other hand there is another regular that is friends with many of the regulars, and on nights with dancing he is a big part of the energy of the club. He never drinks so does not spend any money at the bar. His presence brings lots of other people into the bar, and I am sure the venue thinks of him a strong positive. The bartenders and owners always smile and give him a wave when he shows up.

Sometimes a singer at a bar makes the show enjoyable and a good song may bring back other people the next week, even if the singer buys one soda every 3 shows. On the other hand someone drinking 10 drinks and being a fool may drive away customers from returning the next week.

Everything is subject to Pohl's law:

[tab]90% of everything is crap.

Which is one of the reasons for "they don't make things like they used to". No, they don't. They make them better. All the stuff that survives from times past is the best stuff. The overwhelming majority of the crap made back then has passed into the dust of history.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Re: Dan's pic of O'Finnigan's - I can't tell you the number of people who have visited my show or hubby' show and told me that they would NEVER go to that place again... I have no idea how it garnered the 'best' of anything prize.

Yes,a reader board on a main road is a godsend...and it is amazing to me the number of places that don't use them to their advantage. I worked a gig for a few years -- they had a very visible reader board and almost every week I had to remind them to use it. Another place had a reader board on wheels that they did not know how to use -- amazingly when they posted karaoke, they always attracted a few new people. Place was packed every weekend so perhaps they thought they didn't need to use it anymore.

Anyway back to the original post - once in a while these dinosaurs with attitude rear their ugly head and it just tells me they've not gone to a lot of places to check things out. I call it doing my homework - even to hear/see bands. It just makes sense to know what's really going on. Guess he'll continue his $125 gigs a few times a year. (Interestingly he told me he had a $700 in-ear monitor -- takes a lot of $125 gigs to buy one of those.)

While we are speaking about "misconceptions", you have come to a completely erroneous conception of what I posted! I believe that I CLEARLY stated that for anyone to believe that a singer doesn't need to support the venues where they sing by spending money is living under a misconception. What part of your post disproves or even disputes my premise?



Based upon the way I stated my premise I will have to concede the foregoing to you. I was specifically thinking, however, of KJ's who set the singer quality as being of prime importance, at every show, at every venue, every time.

Haven't we discussed a specific show in San Francisco that is known for favoring the good singers? Was the Kj Miss Woo, or something like that!

I have both extremes.

I have one venue that has great singers...very entertaining. Non-singers even come just to listen & be entertained by the talent. Newbies are surprised and have even commented that Karaoke is so much better then they thought it would be.

I have another venue that totally perpetuates the "Karaoke Is Torture" myth. Nothing but drunk, twenty-something screamers that couldn't carry a tune with a gun to their head. Not even a mediocre singer in the bunch! BUT...they drink themselves silly, always have a fantastic time, and the bar makes money.

As for musicians, one of my very best friends is a singer/songwriter/guitarist. He has sung Karaoke many times at my house, but wont come to a gig because he cant stand the crappy singers. I keep asking him why that matters...he sings great! But it drives him nuts when someone sings Meatloaf or American Pie. I think musicians tend to focus on the talent factor instead of the FUN factor.

Karen I think you showed great restraint talking to this guy. You handled him well. He sounds like he has an ax to grind with karaoke. If he had a successful band he wouldn't have to blame karaoke for his lack of gigs.

I don't think people like that are even worth trying to change their minds. Oh well his loss.

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Drives me nuts too. I don't have those songs in my book. And if they are over 6 minutes of singing time they aren't in my system, either.


I don't call that fun. Face it, for those of us who aren't really into drinking and hanging out, it isn't fun to hear a bad singer constantly select 5-minute-plus songs. If it were once a night? Sure. But it is *way* too common, and if you have multiple ones....

I went to one show where there were only 4 singers in the first round so they had a "two-fer". The first three singers, all terrible, selected songs of which the shortest was 5:35. The final indignity was an excruciating rendering of "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant", all 7:32 of it. This was 40 minutes of karaoke hell, and the crowded twenty-something college bar crowd was getting restless and was obviously considering moving if something didn't change. I got up and did a reasonable rendition of Bad Bad Leroy Brown and got a standing ovation. Kind of like hitting yourself with a hammer and then it feeling so good when you stop.

You might have to put up with a bit of it, but there is no sense in asking for it. I don't keep long songs in my book, and I don't allow repeats. I have gotten asked for American Pie and PBTDL once each, and just said I didnt' have it. (True enough, as it wasn't present on the computer at all.) I've been known to ask regulars to do a different song if they are picking too many long ones.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

You spent an hour on the phone arguing with an idiot?

What's the saying: Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.