Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?

Very good list Dan... (but, as I always do) I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. There is no help for folks who are up there just to act the fool. Certainly you will have to tweak the volume for the screamers and the whisperers. But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also
making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man.

exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:45 am wrote:

I disagree with you. Some KJs are good at this, some are not. If you don't like a KJ's use of FX you should say something to them. Maybe they were distracted by a bunch of people asking them questions, or maybe they made a mistake. Either way, you should not write off the value of FX simply because some KJs do it badly. Find better ones or ask the KJ at place you go to, to do your songs to your preference.

I would like to give you an example, Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight. I have a regular singer who does this song very well, and I also happen to have mixed a band that did this song just a few weeks before he started singing it. So I already knew what sounded good because it took me a few moments to get it right for that band's lead singer. I use a ~600ms delay and I "ride the fader," adjusting the delay signal throughout the song so you hear the trailing delays like "in the air tonight..ight...ight" like in the Phil Collins recording. Bar patrons are pretty impressed by this and they think that singer is just crazy good at all his songs, but really, I listen to all the music he sings, so I am quite good at getting the FX right. And I am constantly on the delay fader throughout the song since you can't just set it at one point and leave it.

I will also use different FX for verse and chorus in many songs, as it is appropriate to change. And if a person starts talking to the audience during a long "instrumental break" I mute the FX (except reverb sometimes) so they sound natural.

I have a 4 engine FX unit and I very often use 3 if not all 4. I don't over-use FX, though, I mix so the singer sounds like they're in a band with a professional "sound man," because I also happen to do work for bands and I know what to do.

jeffsw6 @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:12 am wrote:

exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:45 am wrote:

ya-but ya-but ya-but... what if you didn't know the singer and he didn't want to sound like Phil. You would be stepping on his performnce.

I can think of a few very valid reasons why a singer brings the drink to the stage when singing. This singers need a place to put the glass/cup/can of drink. Don't expect them to put the drink on the floor. Provide such place.

... I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup.

But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man.

exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am wrote:

... I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup.

I'm not sure I understand that analogy. I'm primarily talking about volume, not EQ or FX. Some tracks are recorded with a lot of dynamic range, some aren't. If I've set the gain for some horrible synth pan flute track and the next song is an SC track with full orchestration, I'll probably need to lower the track. Same for singers. Some hold the mic at chest level, some hold it directly to their mouth. In order for the vocal/music mix to sound right, the KJ is going to need to ride the gain one way or another.

What I was addressing are those hosts who as soon as they push start make a beeline to smoke a butt or to get a drink or head to the loo. At the very least the KJ should stick around until the vocals come in, so if there are any glaring inconsistencies in volume it can be corrected. I've seen lots of singers whose mic level is so low they have to yell to be over the track. Yet the oblivious KJ just leaves it set the same way all night.

exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am wrote:

A KJ who isn't a sound man to some extent is in the wrong business. What early Elvis rock song doesn't sound better with some reverb? What ballad doesn't sound better with a little "room" ambience rather than stone cold flat and dry? It's my job to make the singer sound great...and I think any professional KJ might know a little more about how to do that technically than your average karaoke warbler.

Author:	DangerousDanKaraoke [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:09 am ]
Post subject:	KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
To give each "side" a better understanding of how to have the best karaoke experience (I am both a singer and a host) I'm putting together a Top 5 list for each group. Can you think of anything else I should include...maybe make it a Top 10? What singers ask KJ’s for a better karaoke experience… 1. Please respect our time by starting on time. A 9 o’clock show doesn’t mean 9:30, or “until you have enough singers to start.” If we’re here and have handed you song slips, we’re ready to sing. 2. Don’t squeeze a thousand teeny tiny song titles on to your songbook pages. Bar lighting isn’t exactly made for reading! It’s OK if your songbook’s not new, but it should never be dirty. (Ewww!) 3. After our songs start, please take a second to twist the right knobs and give us the right vocal mix. One size does not fit all. We might sing softer or louder, or the track can be a different volume than the last singer. 4. Please be honest about how long it will be until I sing. I might have an early meeting or have to get the babysitter home. I would rather catch you another time than be seething every minute past when you told me. 5. Because we’re anxious to sing, we notice hosts who always get the rotation confused or always move up their friends. (And we tell others!) And KJ’s, if there’s a long list of waiting singers, could you do your song later? What KJ’s ask singers for a better karaoke experience… 1. Please print your song slips clearly and fill in all the blanks. Sometimes different songs have the same title and want to make sure we play the one you want. If we use song numbers, double check that they are accurate. 2. We work hard to keep the show smooth with surprises at a minimum. Signing up others for songs without their knowledge usually just makes things awkward. For your songs, use your real name or a nickname, but use the same one all night. 3. Please don’t just lay down a song slip somewhere near us and walk away. We might not see it and it won’t get in the rotation. Pause a second to put your slip in our hands or wait until we acknowledge your request. 4. Many hosts buy their own gear and pay to print their own books. Please treat them nice. Don’t swing our microphones by the cord or yell into them at the top of your lungs. (It hurts people’s ears too.) Try to keep our books clean and dry. 5. Most all KJ’s have different rules and guidelines about singers, songs and rotations. It’s our wish to help you have the best karaoke experience. If you’re not, don’t sit and stew, come up so we can answer your question with a smile.

Author:	mrscott [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
Dan, that is straight forward and simple. I like it! Some basic guidelines that apply to everyone involved at any karaoke show. I agree with you totally. Sometimes people just forget the simple things and get sidetracked into something totally different. A little common sense and a little common courtesy go a long ways.

Author:	jeffsw6 [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
I wish singers would not hold their beer or cigarette near me or my equipment when they are talking to me. I like beer and tobacco, but my laptop does not. I wish some hosts would get over their cool light show and just make the song sound right. $400 of cheap lights are not going to make me look like a rock star, and if I can't hear myself in the $400 of cheap wedges, I might as well go to a different show.

Author:	diafel [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
I have a VERY STRICT rule that singers do not ever put their drinks on the tables with my equipment. If they want to bring their drink up with them, that's fine, but when they want to set it down, anywhere but on my table is where it belongs. The floor works wonders! Sometimes I get nasty looks and comments, but it's not them replacing thousands of dollars in equipment because some drunk decided they were too good to follow my rules. That is one rule I am on top of every single second and there are zero exceptions to it. Even I never put my drink on my table.

Author:	ripman8 [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
I always make sure there is a small stand near the singer monitor for drinks. I designed my rack stand so that its difficult to put a drink on it. I like lights. But,,,,, not until the sound iis first class.

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Author:	Dr Fred [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
I think it is important that "co-singers" are only up on stage at the invitiation of the primary singer (duets, group singing) only happens when the singer that signed up is encouraging the situation.

Author:	BigJer [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
Good list Dan. kingBing, I like to have a small separate table up front for drinks as well. Most singers who forget and bring their drinks up with them will use it if it's convenient to the stage and KJ area.

Author:	Jian [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
I can think of a few very valid reasons why a singer brings the drink to the stage when singing. This singers need a place to put the glass/cup/can of drink. Don't expect them to put the drink on the floor. Provide such place.

Author:	diafel [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
Neither of my venues can accommodate another table without leaving no room for the singers. The only extra tables they have are on the large side, hence the floor, which isn't a huge problem in one of the venues as it's a stage, so dancers, etc won't be kicking them over. At the other venue, there is a table nearby, but sometimes other guests are seated at it. Most people don't bring their drinks at that venue anyway. As for having no valid reason to bring them, of course there isn't, but what do you expect? They're drunk!

Author:	johnreynolds [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
We ended up getting a "tv dinner stand" 4 foot high foldable table from WM for $18 and it's easy to store at the venue. It appears the a few of our regulars need the beer for "security" and to coat their throats whilst rocking Zepplin or AC DC. We still try to discourage singers verbally from bringing up their drinks, but it's better to have something just in case they won't/don't listen. Our table is off to the side about 5 feet from the singer monitor. Good list Dan. But nobody seems to want to read more than a few lines of my rules/ regulations in my book, so i post a few on a sign velcroed on the singer screen.

Author:	exweedfarmer [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
Very good list Dan... (but, as I always do) I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. There is no help for folks who are up there just to act the fool. Certainly you will have to tweak the volume for the screamers and the whisperers. But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man.

Author:	Avg Joe [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
Yep, pretty good lists there Dan. Alot seems like common sense, but you know how hard that can be to find.

Author:	jeffsw6 [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:45 am wrote: Very good list Dan... (but, as I always do) I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. There is no help for folks who are up there just to act the fool. Certainly you will have to tweak the volume for the screamers and the whisperers. But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man. I disagree with you. Some KJs are good at this, some are not. If you don't like a KJ's use of FX you should say something to them. Maybe they were distracted by a bunch of people asking them questions, or maybe they made a mistake. Either way, you should not write off the value of FX simply because some KJs do it badly. Find better ones or ask the KJ at place you go to, to do your songs to your preference. I would like to give you an example, Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight. I have a regular singer who does this song very well, and I also happen to have mixed a band that did this song just a few weeks before he started singing it. So I already knew what sounded good because it took me a few moments to get it right for that band's lead singer. I use a ~600ms delay and I "ride the fader," adjusting the delay signal throughout the song so you hear the trailing delays like "in the air tonight..ight...ight" like in the Phil Collins recording. Bar patrons are pretty impressed by this and they think that singer is just crazy good at all his songs, but really, I listen to all the music he sings, so I am quite good at getting the FX right. And I am constantly on the delay fader throughout the song since you can't just set it at one point and leave it. I will also use different FX for verse and chorus in many songs, as it is appropriate to change. And if a person starts talking to the audience during a long "instrumental break" I mute the FX (except reverb sometimes) so they sound natural. I have a 4 engine FX unit and I very often use 3 if not all 4. I don't over-use FX, though, I mix so the singer sounds like they're in a band with a professional "sound man," because I also happen to do work for bands and I know what to do.

Author:	exweedfarmer [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
jeffsw6 @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:12 am wrote: exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:45 am wrote: Very good list Dan... (but, as I always do) I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. There is no help for folks who are up there just to act the fool. Certainly you will have to tweak the volume for the screamers and the whisperers. But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man. I disagree with you. Some KJs are good at this, some are not. If you don't like a KJ's use of FX you should say something to them. Maybe they were distracted by a bunch of people asking them questions, or maybe they made a mistake. Either way, you should not write off the value of FX simply because some KJs do it badly. Find better ones or ask the KJ at place you go to, to do your songs to your preference. I would like to give you an example, Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight. I have a regular singer who does this song very well, and I also happen to have mixed a band that did this song just a few weeks before he started singing it. So I already knew what sounded good because it took me a few moments to get it right for that band's lead singer. I use a ~600ms delay and I "ride the fader," adjusting the delay signal throughout the song so you hear the trailing delays like "in the air tonight..ight...ight" like in the Phil Collins recording. Bar patrons are pretty impressed by this and they think that singer is just crazy good at all his songs, but really, I listen to all the music he sings, so I am quite good at getting the FX right. And I am constantly on the delay fader throughout the song since you can't just set it at one point and leave it. I will also use different FX for verse and chorus in many songs, as it is appropriate to change. And if a person starts talking to the audience during a long "instrumental break" I mute the FX (except reverb sometimes) so they sound natural. I have a 4 engine FX unit and I very often use 3 if not all 4. I don't over-use FX, though, I mix so the singer sounds like they're in a band with a professional "sound man," because I also happen to do work for bands and I know what to do. ya-but ya-but ya-but... what if you didn't know the singer and he didn't want to sound like Phil. You would be stepping on his performnce.

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Author:	mckyj57 [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:41 pm wrote: jeffsw6 @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:12 am wrote: exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:45 am wrote: Very good list Dan... (but, as I always do) I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. There is no help for folks who are up there just to act the fool. Certainly you will have to tweak the volume for the screamers and the whisperers. But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man. I disagree with you. Some KJs are good at this, some are not. If you don't like a KJ's use of FX you should say something to them. Maybe they were distracted by a bunch of people asking them questions, or maybe they made a mistake. Either way, you should not write off the value of FX simply because some KJs do it badly. Find better ones or ask the KJ at place you go to, to do your songs to your preference. I would like to give you an example, Phil Collins - In the Air Tonight. I have a regular singer who does this song very well, and I also happen to have mixed a band that did this song just a few weeks before he started singing it. So I already knew what sounded good because it took me a few moments to get it right for that band's lead singer. I use a ~600ms delay and I "ride the fader," adjusting the delay signal throughout the song so you hear the trailing delays like "in the air tonight..ight...ight" like in the Phil Collins recording. Bar patrons are pretty impressed by this and they think that singer is just crazy good at all his songs, but really, I listen to all the music he sings, so I am quite good at getting the FX right. And I am constantly on the delay fader throughout the song since you can't just set it at one point and leave it. I will also use different FX for verse and chorus in many songs, as it is appropriate to change. And if a person starts talking to the audience during a long "instrumental break" I mute the FX (except reverb sometimes) so they sound natural. I have a 4 engine FX unit and I very often use 3 if not all 4. I don't over-use FX, though, I mix so the singer sounds like they're in a band with a professional "sound man," because I also happen to do work for bands and I know what to do. ya-but ya-but ya-but... what if you didn't know the singer and he didn't want to sound like Phil. You would be stepping on his performnce. Then you have to take the hit. But your concern is groundless, I believe. I do this all the time for songs like "Behind Blue Eyes", or "Lights", or "Sweet Child of Mine". I get compliments from people about it.

Author:	seattledrizzle [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
Jian @ Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:42 pm wrote: I can think of a few very valid reasons why a singer brings the drink to the stage when singing. This singers need a place to put the glass/cup/can of drink. Don't expect them to put the drink on the floor. Provide such place. It's nice to be able to have something to sing when singing certain songs. For example, I've sung Boston's Long Time when my voice was marginal. I knew I was going to have trouble hitting the "yeaaah" part in the middle of the long instrumental, much less finishing the rest of the song. Without a few gulps of something to drink. the song would have sounded pretty ragged...or should I say a lot more ragged?

Author:	DangerousDanKaraoke [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am wrote: ... I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. I'm not sure I understand that analogy. I'm primarily talking about volume, not EQ or FX. Some tracks are recorded with a lot of dynamic range, some aren't. If I've set the gain for some horrible synth pan flute track and the next song is an SC track with full orchestration, I'll probably need to lower the track. Same for singers. Some hold the mic at chest level, some hold it directly to their mouth. In order for the vocal/music mix to sound right, the KJ is going to need to ride the gain one way or another. What I was addressing are those hosts who as soon as they push start make a beeline to smoke a butt or to get a drink or head to the loo. At the very least the KJ should stick around until the vocals come in, so if there are any glaring inconsistencies in volume it can be corrected. I've seen lots of singers whose mic level is so low they have to yell to be over the track. Yet the oblivious KJ just leaves it set the same way all night. exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am wrote: But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man. A KJ who isn't a sound man to some extent is in the wrong business. What early Elvis rock song doesn't sound better with some reverb? What ballad doesn't sound better with a little "room" ambience rather than stone cold flat and dry? It's my job to make the singer sound great...and I think any professional KJ might know a little more about how to do that technically than your average karaoke warbler.

Author:	Lonman [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
To singers: Please do not jump on stage if it isn't your turn. Even though a singer may say it's ok once you are up there, the majority of the time, they are just saying ok not to create a scene.

Author:	exweedfarmer [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
DangerousDanKaraoke @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:59 pm wrote: exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am wrote: ... I would take exception to number three of the first section in the matter of knob twiddling after the song has started. That's like the cook adding spices after he has served the soup. I'm not sure I understand that analogy. I'm primarily talking about volume, not EQ or FX. Some tracks are recorded with a lot of dynamic range, some aren't. If I've set the gain for some horrible synth pan flute track and the next song is an SC track with full orchestration, I'll probably need to lower the track. Same for singers. Some hold the mic at chest level, some hold it directly to their mouth. In order for the vocal/music mix to sound right, the KJ is going to need to ride the gain one way or another. What I was addressing are those hosts who as soon as they push start make a beeline to smoke a butt or to get a drink or head to the loo. At the very least the KJ should stick around until the vocals come in, so if there are any glaring inconsistencies in volume it can be corrected. I've seen lots of singers whose mic level is so low they have to yell to be over the track. Yet the oblivious KJ just leaves it set the same way all night. exweedfarmer @ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:45 am wrote: But that tiny little bump of the EQ or FX... please don't. Remember that a singer who might know what he's doing is also making adjustments to his/her sound and doesn't want to be dancing around some would be sound man. A KJ who isn't a sound man to some extent is in the wrong business. What early Elvis rock song doesn't sound better with some reverb? What ballad doesn't sound better with a little "room" ambience rather than stone cold flat and dry? It's my job to make the singer sound great...and I think any professional KJ might know a little more about how to do that technically than your average karaoke warbler. What I meant by the soup analogy is that it would improper and most annoying if the chef brought the soup and a spice tray and continually sampled the soup adding or subtracting ingredients to his liking while you were eating it. Same thing with the audio mix. The mix makes no difference to those who can't sing because they aren't listening. Certainly, you have to be there for the screamers and the whisperers if only to protect your equipment. For those who can sing and know how to use their voice and a mic, I think that changing the sonic enviroment on the fly is a disservice. Singing and performing are like anything else, you learn from your mistakes. How can you tell if you made a mistake if the bad sound wasn't your fault but something the KJ did? My motto has long been "Tweak the singer not the mixer." That doesn't mean go out for a smoke and leave things unattended. But if the singer doesn't know how to hold the mic you might say something like "Hey, I think you might get a better ovarall sound if you held the mic like this." as he's leaving the stage, instead of turning up the gain until it crackles. There is no need for a work-around when you can just fix the problem IMHO.

Author:	Manobeer [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: KJ or Singer - what can you add to the list?
I can see both sides of the tweaking debate... As a singer it is a bit harder to hear yourself singing and if the KJ knows what he is doing he can make you sound better without throwing you off. BUT very often, when you are singing and all of a sudden notice a change... IT DOES throw you off. I love how some hosts joke about singers not knowing how bad they sound, in some cases the irony is painful.