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multi-track karaoke
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Author:  jeffsw6 [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  multi-track karaoke
I am not sure if I posted about this before or not, but I thought I would throw this on the forum. I am often frustrated with the mix quality of karaoke tracks, even from good manufacturers. You know, the guitar solo is not really louder than the guitar during the rest of the song; the bass guitar has way too much low-end but the kick drum sounds fine, etc.

I do live sound as well as karaoke and I am particularly annoyed by this, because if the computer had the capability to give me even a small number of tracks that I could mix with more finesse, I would really enjoy it. I realize that most users would probably not want this, because they have singers talking to them constantly and can't really focus on pushing faders all night; and I would not want to do it for every singer/song either.

But if I could pay a premium, even $10 or $20 per song, to buy multi-track recordings of certain songs my best singers ask for every week, I would buy them and make sure I can focus on what I'm doing when that person sings. Even if I only had 4 or 8 tracks I would love to at least have the lead guitar, bass guitar, kick/snare, and the rest of the band separated out. Not to mention tracks that have backing vocals which are sometimes needed, but other times you don't want them.

I just thought I'd mention this idea because the karaoke companies presumably save their tracks after mix-down and would have the capability of selling them if there was a karaoke program capable of playing them, and a reasonably-priced audio interface for getting those tracks from a computer into a mixer.

With all the new things SC and CB are up to, maybe this is an idea they could consider. I would absolutely buy Purple Rain in multi-track right now if it was available, and I bet I could come up with 20 others I would like to have.
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
This is part of the reason I like running karaoke because I can take a break from having to mix an entire band. I think this would be a waste of money for any manu IMO. There would be so few that could actually make this worthwhile - especially since many kj's only run 8-12 channels on a typical karaoke mixer. Plus many would not have a clue as to how to actually mix/eq/effect/compress each channel individually as an engineer would with a live band (multi track) scenerio as they've never really done it. This would be probably a 1% niche of the market place.
Most of the tracks I use are recorded good enough & there is enough with the eq you can actually pull out some or drop some sound - no not like a live band or multi track setup, just don't think it would be worth the manus time or money honestly.
Author:  letitrip [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
I like the idea, but the logistics of it are pretty duanting. I mean you'd have to have a common format or some pretty expensive software packages (ProTools, Cubase or whatever). You're PC would have to have an DAC with enough channels to support all the tracks of the widest recording and you'd need a much larger mixer. Sounds like fun but in reality probably pretty tough to implement. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be seriously interested in it myself.
Author:  TopherM [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
There was a company called The Singing Station that released 4 track karaoke a few years ago with the backing vocals on one track, the melody instruments on one track, the rythm instruments on one track, and the drums on a separate track. They were charging like $20.00 A TRACK, though, so I doubt they made any ripples in the industry!!
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
letitrip @ Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:33 am wrote:
I like the idea, but the logistics of it are pretty duanting. I mean you'd have to have a common format or some pretty expensive software packages (ProTools, Cubase or whatever).

Since DVDs and movie file formats support additional tracks for 5.1, 7.1, etc I think it would be pretty easy to settle on a file format which could be supported by free or inexpensive software. I didn't mean to suggest KJs would want to fool with a multi-track audio package, obviously that would be cumbersome.

It just irks me that the mix quality of so many karaoke tracks is really poor. I imagine the guys doing it have so much work to do in so many hours and they know 99.9% of KJs are going to be satisfied with the results. But if a different format existed, maybe that 99.9% would start to shrink?

With all the talk about downloads, streaming, subscriptions, piracy, etc. I figured I would share my idea because when it comes down to it, no one really talks about sound quality or new ways to make old recordings sound better. Heck, if Sound Choice or Chartbuster would let me have the masters for songs I want, I could re-mix them at home and not fool with it live, and probably be much happier with the results.
Author:  letitrip [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
Yeah I was thinking in terms of anywhere from 12-20 simultaneous tracks. There just isn't much on the market today that would support that. I agree though that the production on most Karaoke tracks is seriously lacking. I'd love to get my hands on the original tracks and be able to re-master it myself. Sure would be time consuming but well worth it to me. I wonder if the average karaoke singer would notice the difference.
Author:  leopard lizard [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
My strictly non-sound engineer observation is that many singers don't notice what they are used to but when something better gets played, they get very excited. Good guitars really get them happy and the audience starts air guitaring along, etc. Good renditions also get the dancers out there.
Author:  jeffsw6 [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
letitrip @ Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:51 pm wrote:
I wonder if the average karaoke singer would notice the difference.

I think many singers would. They ask for certain versions of their favorite songs, prefer Sound Choice over Sunfly, etc. I'm sure if I had the opportunity to re-mix from masters just the way I want, I could offer something better than neighboring KJs.

I guess it's a pipe dream, but SC/CB decision-makers, if you are reading, I hope you'll consider this if it can be done inexpensively!
Author:  diafel [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
I've often wished the same thing. I have many songs that only one manu put out, so I'm stuck with the results of poor mastering by someone with no ears who should get out of the business!
What I wish for is the ability to re-master for myself and then replace the original track with the remastered one and just use the remastered track, rather than to be mixing live all the time. I've often considered heading in to hubby's studio to see what I could do with existing tracks as they are, even without multi tracks.
I mean, on some of them ANYTHING pulled forward or pushed back, depending on the problem, would be better than what it is now. I just haven't had the time to go in an fool with it.
Author:  adexecky [ Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
I produce a live entertainment act that uses recorded tracks in multitrack for our instrumentation. Because we're trying to emulate the sound of a live band, simple two track mixes didn't necessarily work for us.

Ive talked to virually all of the karaoke production studios (not the companies that market the songs), and have found them very responsive to the concept. However, the cost is overwhelmingly significant - roughly $100-$200 per song. And that's for the ones they have still in multitrack.

The average time to dump a song to a cd or dvd in multitrack is approximately 10-15 minutes per song. At normal studio time, you can see how that can "add up".

There are two sites that are currently putting virtually all their new material in a multitrack format at roughly $3 per track (with 8 tracks per song available). www.karaoke-version.com is a pretty good one on all their new stuff.

You can also work through the drum hits to give the tracks more "live impact" pretty easily by overlaying a hot snare track. Takes about 30-45 minutes per song, so you'll need to have the ability and the "rig" to do it yourself, or else you have the same cost issues.
Author:  theCheese [ Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
I, too have listened to the occasional track and thought the guitar could come up a bit more.. or if perhaps a little tweeking to the snare mic would really make this track pop.

But you know, sometimes I think the same thing about the tracks from the original artist.

The only time I could see being able to punch tracks in and out would be in a pro studio environment.. mostly because you want to replace one of the instrument tracks with your own playing.

I bought a box of discs several months ago from a pawn shop that came in with an old player that had some 'Guitar Oke' discs.. I guess the idea was to play your guitar along with the track.

For the most part, though.. I find the majority of tracks to sound fine, and a little EQ'ing along with the Sonic Maximizer in my rack seems to smooth out any perceived 'lumps'.

Wouldn't be difficult for the major mfg's to offer those tracks 'raw'.. but the complexity of playing them in a live environment, especially in conjunction with on screen lyrics would likely be well outside the technical capabilities of your garden variety KJ.

In short.. very narrow buying audience would mean a pretty steep per song price tag, and probably not a very wide selection.

Cool idea, though.
Author:  letitrip [ Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
adexecky @ Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:46 am wrote:
There are two sites that are currently putting virtually all their new material in a multitrack format at roughly $3 per track (with 8 tracks per song available). www.karaoke-version.com is a pretty good one on all their new stuff.


Adexecky, damn you!!! Now I'm got one more thing I'm going to be spending a ton of money on, that is way too cool. :lol: This will be very cool for some performance stuff I'm doing. Unfortunately as it pertains to this discussion though, if I understand correctly what they provide you is still just a regular 2 track MP3 not separate tracks that you could then post-process on your own.
Author:  Micky [ Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
And for those wanting some Christmas music that don't sound like midi, they are offering them for FREE :shock:

http://www.karaoke-version.com/karaoke_free/

They can also be adjusted in multi-track before downloading :wink:
Author:  lackey [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
adexecky:

You said there are 2 sites with multi-track formats. What is the second site you are talking about?
Author:  Kevin That 70s Guy [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: multi-track karaoke
jeffsw6 - I sent you a couple of multi-track files a while back. I'm interested in hearing what you were able to do with them. Is that what you were thinking of when you made this post? There are more out there.

Kevin
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