Karaoke Forums

The "Manager Likes My Show But..." thread lead us back into the PURE KARAOKE vs. KARAOKE/DJ show thing, so here's my take on it.

ONE IS NOT BETTER THAN THE OTHER PEOPLE!!!!

Karaoke shows run a SPECTRUM of viable shows, and appeals to all sorts of different people and places. That is why we have such a vibrant industry.

Here are the extremes. ALL shows fall somewhere between these two, and all shows within this spectrum are viable options. Each KJ just needs to figure out what MIX of these two extremes fits for each venue.

EXTREME # 1: HARD CORE KARAOKE

Your average HARD CORE singer wants to sing as often as possible. They are typically better than average singers, but each one also typically thinks they are better singers than they actually are. In a way, they go to karaoke because they want other people to hear them sing. These singers think that there is an "art" to the karaoke they are doing. These singers typically have a karaoke set up at home, own their own discs, and know what the wattage of the KJs speakers is.

Bars that appeal to HARD CORE singers are often smaller and have a very cohesive theme, like country bars or rock bars. Basically, most of the singers sing songs along the same genre lines. These types of karaoke shows can often be successful with earlier hours or off-day (Sunday-Monday) shows. The average age of the singers at a HARD CORE karaoke show is typically 30-40+.

CASUAL singers typically do not show up to these types of shows until the later hours. CASUAL singers that wander into HARD CORE karaoke bars are often judged pretty harshly by the HARD CORE regulars, and often will not return. HARD CORE singers will leave a show in a SECOND if there is too much filler music or the host sings too much. It cuts into THEIR singing time. The regulars in a HARD CORE karaoke venue are often close with the other regulars and very protective of THEIR bar. They don't like change, and will be VERY harsh to fill-in KJs or a change in KJs if things are not done EXACTLY like they are used to.

HARD CORE karaoke singers are concerned with the KJs equipment, especially the version of the songs they sing. If you give a HARD CORE singer the Chartbuster version of a song, but they typically sing SoundChoice version, they WILL ask you to start it over with the correct version. The typical HARD CORE singer watches the rotation like a hawk, and knows where the KJ slots the new singers. They WILL complain if there is any discrepency. They will not tolerate an irregular rotation. They also will not tolerate too LONG of a rotation where they can not sing as often as they would like, and will leave if too many newbies are there that night.

KJs at HARD CORE shows MUST make their show 100% about the karaoke singer and thier wants. They will typically have better than average equipment, or else incur the wrath of their knowledgeable singers. Technical prowess is more important than hosting skills at this type of show. KJs of HARD CORE shows are probably more likely to have a KARAOKE SCENE account.

There is nothing "wrong" with a HARD CORE karaoke bar. If you are reading the above and think it sounds horrible, then you ARE NOT a HARD CORE karaoke singer. When I personally choose a place to go sing, I go to places that are pretty extreme HARD CORE karaoke bars.

The 20+ regular singers in a crowded HARD CORE karaoke bar typically ALL show up early and stay late, and this is what drives the till. The NON-SINGERS in the audience will primarily be the friends and family of the singers. You'll typically see the same faces at this show most every week, sometimes for years and years. Newbies are usually passive-agressively discouraged, unless they fit the formula and become a new regular.

EXTREME #2: CASUAL KARAOKE

The typical singer at this type of venue could care less about how good they sound. They just want to have FUN. The average singer only does karaoke once they have a few beers in them. The average age of singers at this type of show is 21-30.These types of karaoke venues depend on primarily on TURNOVER and non-singers to drive the till.

Popular venues with these types of shows are typicall SLOW early in the evening, but crazy bananas busy by about 11:30, and on through last call. HARD CORE singers will often come to these types of shows EARLY in the evening, but don't stay once the young drinkers show up or the rotation gets too long. These types of shows often start later and go later into the night than HARD CORE shows, and are typically performed on peak days (Thursday-Saturdays).

HARD CORE singers are typically looked down upon and judged at a CASUAL karaoke bar. They are looked at as uptight DIVAs that think they are better than everyone else, and the CASUAL singers will run them off. CASUAL singers appreciate a good singer with a good voice, but you have to be self-deffacing and humble, you can't brag about being a good singer, or you will be ridiculed. Most CASUAL singers used to be non-singers that made fun of the singers, but then tried karaoke one drunken night and enjoy the rush of being in the spotlight. These singers will often "entertain" in more ways than just singing when they are on stage.

This type of show might have a handful of regulars, but it is really driven by the non-singers and the people who make this bar one of many destinations throughout the night. This is a bar where you HAVE to cater to the non-singers, because they typically are NOT affiliated with the singers, and will leave pretty quickly if the show becomes too CENTERED around the karaoke singers. Obviously, this type of karaoke show typically does not have as much talent as a HARD CORE show would. It is about having FUN, not the "art" that HARD CORE singers seek.

KJs at this type of venue typically place a lower premium on equipment when compared to the KJs at a HARD CORE karaoke venue. The singers put a much lower premium on the quality of equipment and tracks, they just want it to work. KJs at this type of venue must put a higher premium on HOSTING SKILLS and keeping everyone happy, safe, and generally "in-line." This type of show typically REQUIRES good DJ music filler to entertain the non-singers, and even the singers at this type of show APPRECIATE the DJ side of the show.

There is nothing "wrong" with a CASUAL karaoke bar. If you are reading the above and think this type of show sounds HORRIBLE, then you are probably a HARD CORE karaoke singer or KJ.

KJs of CASUAL karaoke shows are probably outnumbered on the KARAOKE SCENE site TWO to ONE, but CASUAL karaoke shows probably outnumber HARD CORE karaoke shows THREE to ONE in the real world.

SUMMARY:

Your show falls into the middle of each of these extremes, and both are valuable and viable forms of karaoke.

Let's end the "ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER" arguements, and just agree that karaoke can entertain a very broad and diverse audience in very different ways, which is why we all have jobs!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Great follow-up Topher. My show is DEFINATELY an EXTREME #1 Hard core Karaoke show. Described to a T. The casual crowd will show up at my show USUALLY at about midnight (after hitting all the other bars) and want to sing immediately. Which of course is impossible, so they are put in the rotation, (if time allows). I guess you could say that I have the (divas), although (to me), they don't act that way. They respect each others talent, and everyone enjoys "the show". And THAT'S what they're there for, to really show their talent. My show does attract the best singers in the area. Actually, we've been told (by people staying at the hotel), that they thought it was a lounge show, and didn't know it was karaoke. Thanks for the follow up.

Rosario

Nice post Topher, and I think we can extend that a little bit too to say that different people and KJ's enjoy shows that fall into different areas of that spectrum as well. Personally I'm somewhere in the middle of the two extremes you mentioned. I don't like the seriously hard core karaoke show because then it just seems like people aren't singing for fun anymore (my perception not a judgement). On the other hand when they get too casual they just get annoying to me.

I'm somewhere in the middle, I like to hear good singers but I also like to see people (good or bad) that are singing for fun and their antics on stage show it.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I guess I would have to consider myself one of those HARD CORE type singers. However, Singing has always been fun for me. If it wasn't fun; I'd find something else to do with my free time that was fun to do. While I do spend plenty of time practicing new songs to sing; I also spend hours singing songs that I already know like the back of my hand.....because it's fun to sing them....even when no one is there to listen. I don't sing to "show off" I sing for the pure enjoyment of it. I also saw it on a TV commercial that singing adds years to your life. That works for me too. It's fun and healthy.

Ahhhh Multi-tasking

A good summation TopherM but I disagree that the casual show has to play DJ or bumper music and you left out a type of singer. There are also group singers, those who find the courage to sing in numbers. This is the type of singer that my shows cater to.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Good post, Topher. I guess I find myself somewhere in the middle as well.

I enjoy good versions of songs, good equipment and good singers, and the wife and I even have a mini-stage set up in the basement as a practice and party area - but when I KJ or just go out to sing for fun, I appreciate the singers who are there to have a good time and keep it real and remember it's just a karaoke night. I don't want to be around prima donnas regardless of how good they are.

I've said this before, and will say it again,, and most likely again and again,,, but,,,,

There is NO wrong way to host karaoke, only what works for you!

That also applies to singing as well. It's all a matter of taste. Everyone has a song in their hearts, I just hand them the microphone.

Scott

I saw a great quote today along these lines "Music is what feelings sound like". Couldn't have summed it up any better.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Agreed Topher, very well said.

And I'm right there with Letitrip... in the middle. I have some really, unbelievable talent come to my shows, and then i have some others that entertain, but aren't that great a singer, and then.. *coughs* well, we all have those.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

i have to say i'm in the middle as well. we seem to get both at the same place. got the "diva" hard core who dances around the bar while they sing like a lounge act, though they do not typicaly lastvery long before moving on, then the killer singer who is just having fun and has no attitude, then the ones who will shake your fillings loose and strip the paint off the walls. sometimes it's neat to see how all of these people with varying degrees of seriousness will actually share tables and be laughing all night together. last friday had a 50 something cowboy looks like Charlie Daniels (great singer), a biker chick ala Joan Jett (eh, not bad) a long hair metal head (hoooorrrrriiiiible) and 2 "Gangsta" wannabes at one table laughing their a$$es off having a great time all night.
where else but karaoke?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Topher has done a pretty good job of catagorizing karaoke singingers into two different types, but has neglected to categorize hosts into their respective types. I think that's equally important in this discussion.

I myself am a Hardcore Casual Singer. I came to karaoke originally because while out with a friend one night I discovered that two minutes and thirty eight seconds on the micrphone got me more attention from the females in the crowd than I could get in a week's worth of dance club visits. I usually sing fun and off beat songs that set me apart from those who sing the same darn thing everytime they go out.
I prefer to sing in the hardcore environment not because I can carry a tune (somewhat), but because the hosts at these shows usually respect the singers and understand the value that each one ads to the show.


Here's the break-down: AND ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER!

The HardCore Karaoke Host:

-Realizes it's a karaoke show and as such karaoke singers are required
-Plays a fair rotation (a fair rotation isn't always a strict rotation - adjustments are sometimes required just to make the music flow easier)
-Rarely plays full songs of DJ music (only when there are not enough singers (less than five) and then only one or two songs)
-Does not sing in every rotation (unless there are so few singers that it's needed to avoid DJ music)
-Encourages patrons to sing especially new singers
-Stays at the board and makes the singers sound as good as possible
-Doesn't play favorites, take bribes, or allow his show to be comprimised by cleavage
-Isn't there solely for the purpose of picking up women (it's a natural side effect, extra effort should not be needed)
-Has good equipment, worked hard to get it, and is proud of it
-Can play to a Hardcore crowd or a Casual crowd and make a fun time of it either way without comprimising standards
-Acts as a host of a party should, greeting people, and making them comfortable
-Keeps an updated library
-Sings occasionally for the purpose of putting the crowd at ease
-Active in forums to improve his craft

The Casual Karaoke Host:

-Believes the party is all about him and would suck otherwise
-Sings in every rotation and often twice a rotation because people need to know how good he is. (I know a KJ that refers to herself as a professional singer because she's getting paid for a karaoke gig -- often after a singer, I've heard her say "I'll have to sing that one next week so they can see how it's supposed to be done)
-Goes out to smoke instead of adjusting the board for good sound
-Drinks his limit
-Works with a pirated library
-Plays DJ music because some cute little thing asked him to, and he can't imagine himself taking her home with him if he doesn't do whatever she asks
-Ridicules bad singers
-Uses his stupid "radio voice"
-Sings again because it was a "special request"
-Plays more DJ music because it's his favorite song and we may not have heard it yet, and he wants credit for playing it as if he was the one who wrote it
-Let's someone else sing a song that has already been done
-Has lousy but really loud equipment
-Plays more DJ music because he's not having enough fun, so that must be what the crowd needs
-Puts his friends up twice in the rotation because they have to leave soon to go to another bar
-Sings another song so his friends can hear him before they leave
-Plays more DJ music so he can walk his friends out and have a smoke (plus the crowd needs it)
-Downloads pirate music on the fly to impress the girl he's going to put in front of everyone else
-Gets outright hammered by doing shots with everyone who asked for a bump in the rotation (and got it for the price of a shot)
-Sings again because there's only time for one more song
-Leaves at the end of the night thinking it was a great show, everyone had a great time, and everyone loves him. But in fact he was too drunk to see the truth.

Yes, There IS a wrong way to host karaoke, even if it works for you.

( I realize that the casual karaoke host probably does not frequent this forum, that won't stop me from complaining about him)

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KNOW THYSELF

Thank god the narrow minded know-it-all camp has been heard from at last!

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Okay, who took my pants?

To clarify for the small minded know nothing camp,

Hardcore host and casual host does not equate to hardcore show and casual show
The hardcore host can do either and the casual host does niether

I just assumed that most here would have known that's what I meant.

It was a compliment to most everyone in here that I thought were capable of figuring it out......

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KNOW THYSELF

We all understood what you meant, it's just that the rest were too polite to call you an idiot. I don't think any of our shows fit your narrow description exactly. Some of us work from a booth, some work the door and let a computer run the show, some mix DJ and KJ and some think that's a bad idea, some are professional (I would call it aloof) and at least one is a drunken dirty old man who thinks a good karaoke show is measured on the bar's Z tape. But we all have one thing in common, all of our shows work.

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Okay, who took my pants?

I don't see anything wrong in earthling's post, he sees the situation from a hardcore (singer) point of view, which differ from a KJ view. I personally don't agree with some of his points/view but that does not make him an idiot.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I didn't see anything wrong with his post either. However, it did point out, once again, how SOME KJs feel about any singers who have the courage to point out some of their local KJs faults. You KJs sure can be a defensive bunch.

I don't know if i would put those as Hardcore and casual hosts, sounds more like good KJ traits and Bad KJ traits. I would hope that there are no KJ's on here who would see the "casual" traits as a good thing, with the exception of playing DJ music, cause that can really all depend on if its a casual show or a hardcore show.

Out of curiosity, anything else on that "casual" list that a KJ would consider to be a good thing?

Wow, no wonder there's so much krappyoke around our area - it is full of 'casual hosts' ... wow.

I was thinking that the hardcore host fits my show to a T and was wondering what the Casual guy was going to be like.

Lol, then I saw the casual guy, and saw my competition!

you forgot to add:

- Holds up the rotation while he has a drama with his drugged up ex-con girlfriend who is seeing one of the host's singers on the side. (TRUE story. I KID you not)

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Hey I go outside to smoke from time to time (after the sound is properly set and adjusted for the singer)

But all in all I would have to agree with earthlings list!

I run shows that are pure Karaoke at least an hours worth of "different" singers on the list by the time I finish setting up. We have regulars that are there for almost every show and transients that come in as they cruise the bars on the strip. there is no filler music the outro of one karaoke song fades into the intro of the next karaoke song so there isn't room for filler music.

I also run shows that have a half hour dance set thrown in at 11:30 at night for those that want to dance both singers and non-singers.

As far as hosting I guess I fit mostly into earthlings list of Hard Core KJ, there is no excuse that will move someone up the list (announcements are made throughout the night as to how long it will take to get up "if you sign up right now" I have turned down offers of sex and bribes as high as $100 to bump someone to the top of the list (unless they were next anyway, then damn right I will take the offer). I do not adjust the list for singers ability, song genre, boob size or anything else, I will move someone down the list if they so request it, I will also "switch" a singer for one much further down the list if and that is a BIG "IF" the person requesting the switch is the one who is closer to being up and if the person they are switching with has not yet been on the mic.

I also keep myself in the rotation regardless of the number of people on the list and just keep bumping myself down five singers at a time everytime my name comes up on deck. The Reason for this is if I see someone who has come in fairly early and sits quietly going through the book for most of the night and then finally gets the courage (or has finally had enough liquid courage) to come up and put in a request I will put that persons song under my name.

Another thing I will do that would probably violate earthlings hard core KJ rule is I have people who work late hours at other venues and can't make it in before 11 or 12, they will call me and tell me they are coming and I will put them on the list for whatever time they say they will arrive minus 10 to 20 minutes so they will sing shortly after arriving and have a possible chance to make the "MAYBE LIST" at the end of the night.

There is no way you can really catagorize karaoke shows as hard core or casual nor can you do it with KJs there are many different styles and extremes on both ends and everything else inbetween!