Karaoke Forums

Besides voting in the Poll, please post your Comments!

Ranking...it appears to be a very hot and controversial topic.

I have been working on designing a new method of ranking and would like everyone's feedback.

Currently, under each song is the person's comments and the singer's response. Below that it the rank is displayed that was provided by the commentor.

What I propose is this:

• The rank is no longer displayed that was provided by each individual.
• There will only be the overall rank which is an average of all ranks.
• The overall rank will not be displayed until at least three people have provided a rank. Note: "0" is not a rank.
• Nowhere on the site will the individual rank be displayed.

This will provide anonymity to each person who decides to provide a rank. Also, I believe this will allow everyone to rank performances more fairly and accurately.

What I mean by more fairly and accurately is:

10 = Perfect performance (no flaws)
9 = Near perfection (1 or 2 minor flaws)
8 = Very Good (still needing some work)
7 = Good (number of minor flaws)
6 = Above Average
5 = Average performance in all aspects
4 = Less than average (a few major flaws)
3 = Poor (numerous major flaws)
2 = Barely Listenable
1 = OH MY GOD!

Besides voting in the Poll, please post your Comments!

Phill,
I can live by that, and handle that.. and that sounds quite reasonable.

As for the comments maybe they could be Eliminated from the board all together and delivered by PM to the singer and routed so they can be retrieved & screened by the KS staff in case there is a "Problem" with comments.

This the most fair idea I have seen as of yet, as long as it puts the responsibility on the singers to still remain honest.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

Phill, whatever you decide to try to put a stop to the constant confrontations about the ranks, I will welcome and appreciate it.
IMO it is the comments that really give us direction and motivation to improve our singing. By my own analisis I've seen that comments are given more freely and more sincere when there is no ranking involved. So I'm sorry to disagree with BHB but to me what is really important here is the honest comments and suggestions between people that share the same interest (SINGING, IMPROVING and HAVE FUN WHILE AT IT.) Anybody can comment and express their opinion but speaking for myself, I would prefer to be ranked by pros. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the many good friends I have made here but just as some singers are more skilled than others the same goes as for judging others with a number (RANK). That's why ranks are not a factor of preocupation for me. I'm inclining to stay with the NO RANK alternative.
Well, I gave you my honest opinion. Hope everything woks out for the better.

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I dream of songs of love, peace and harmony.

tonmay,
I couldn't have said it better. I'll back you up on this one!

Tony
I have re-read your reply several times.. and having the respect for your opinions and your expierence as I honestly do. I actually have to back up, Re-direct, and agree with your stance. It really is on the mark.

Until this idea is decided upon, I'll rate songs with a "disclaimer" on the suggested rating scale.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

Phill,
Can I add my kudos to Tonmay's suggestion of remaining rankless on the subs? It is my opinion that 'ranking' does little to inspire camaraderie between people of like interests and only turns it into a competition which ultimately brings down the morale on the Showcase in general.
I feel that people bring their subs here for mainly 2 reason...1) To be heard and 2) To be affirmed...Therefore commenting on submissions is really a key factor here...not necessarily ranking
I do, however, think it would be fun to see how often a song is played, perhaps via a counter or something...in this way, I can ascertain for myself how popular a tune may or may not be. In this way, we can see the 'invisible' sector of listeners that normally wouldn't leave a comment...
Just a thought
Thanks,
Emma

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In front of a mirror with a hairbrush in my hand...SING!!!!!

Hi, friends:
I have to say that I'm very happy for the cordial and sincere tone of this brainstorming session. To expand on Emma's request, IMO It would be a thrill to know the exact number of hits our subs had. From my personal experience, I have received comments from members and non members telling me that they have heard my subs but as for the members they just don't leave a comment and for non members they just can't do it unless they register which I think is fair enough game. I know almost all of us have had the same experience.
Now, to be able to still have a count of all listeners regardless, I believe will present a huge challenge for our very much appreciated WEBGURU, PHILL. Speaking for myself I think it will be a great asset for our beloved site.I have to congratulate Emma for bringing this up .
Before I forget, please check out topic "First page suggestion for webmaster" Maybe Phill can make that page appear with 100 songs as default
Let your thoughts be heard. If we all form a brother/sisterhood here along with Phill, I'm sure we can make this site reinforce its number one standing among the competition.

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I dream of songs of love, peace and harmony.

Oh WOW!

My head is going to P O P!

Inflated ego and all ... J/K (I leave that to others)

One of my concerns is not to offend any participants, but to more fairly allow those persons who do extremely well in their performances to shine. Although, I have listened to many who are excellent.

The other item was to avoid having revenge ranking - I know and you do also that this occurs and I believe that some are afraid to honestly rank for fear of that occuring to them.

I feel that comments are truely an important factor and I do not mean to belittle those. They can be helpful, constructive and sometimes just fun!

As far as hit counter per song... hmmm ... that may be a challenge - 'll see what I can come up with.

Also, I am working on some other features and pricing structures.
One will allow a member to have up to 40 songs posted & 7mb per song!

Thanks for the feedback - Keep it coming - I'm listening (well reading)

Phill

Phil, your proposed ranking system is a brilliant idea. Although, no system is perfect. I think it will be much better than what we currently have. It's definitely an improvement. I'm looking forward to it. I hav'nt submitted anything lately. Everyone's a 9,10 or no ranking. It stopped being challenging and I got bored with this site. I'm looking forward to this upgrade. I think it will bring back integrity to the ranking system.

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Singing is not just FUN. It's THERAPY!

Songaddict,
I am presently ranking with the proposed system with a disclaimer to those who may not know about this thread. or may be extremely offended.

So far it is well recieved to the best of my knowlege,(singer's comments with thier replies) but I'm ranking only a few as I have been extremely busy lately.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

I for one like the open rating stytem, perfect? nope...
how many here have seen judges hide behind a curtain as they rate someone?...no one i'm guessing....the ( rate me....don't rate me)...pretty much covers it for me...i really don't see where thats so hard....why not place a spot on our songs where it says.... DO YOU WANT HONEST OPINIONS.......R DO YOU WANT TO BE LIED TO?....there r a few that rate me honestly and i'm so glad they do....is it for everyone? no....big deal....check the LIE TO ME box....ok thats going a little far but u get the idea....you can hit me with a 7 r an 8 i really don't care just leave comments explaing why u gave the score u did....seems fair....some on here r giving 8's and saying great job but not telling why the 8 r what was wrong with it....there had to be something wrong with it to get the 8...thats my thinking anyway....i could be wrong...

i agree comments r great and the backbone of what a person rates... but if an 8 means a few mistakes... i for one would like to know where those mistakes i made r at.... and trust me i make plenty...personally my ears r shot from to many years playing music... my highs r gone.... sooooo if someone says ...to much bass r to much treble....etc. i take that into account....i learn from that....

i'm here to enjoy listening to others sing and learn from them....
again i will say....a 7 is fine just tell me whats wrong with it...if you can, sometimes its just a feeling...something u can't explain....no biggie....

again why hide ur rating?.... to not offend anyone?.... if 3 people tell you ur off key...odds r u r off key.... u learned from that....why be offended, be thankful....

I just feel the... RATE...DO NOT RATE box covers it all... R SHOULD....IMO...

I started a theard DO YOU WANT MY HONEST OPINION?.... a few pmed me saying yes please do.....the rest just got offended by it, why i don't know....the DO NOT RATE BOX is there....either way the theard didn't work out, so i had it locked.... o well.... i like rateing fairly and giving comments out in the open, not hiding behind a mask....

This subject shouldnt always be so touchy. Like Billy said..if you want to learn...check RATE ME PLEASE... if you already know all you want to know or you are simply opposed to ratings and numbers...check DONT YOU DARE TOUCH THAT DIAL

Personally..I learned alot from judges and members rating me..and telling me where to improve on my vocals...I learned even more about recording and mixing...a little over a year ago I was recording on sound recorder...one take wonders ..Now i can do multi track and add my own harmonies if i want to.. Only because I valued the opinion of my peers.

Rating can be touchy if you tick someone off but thats why we have people who over see the site..to keep people in check .

I still have so much more I would like to learn. So I leave the box open. Pitch and timing I know I usually have down pretty well.. but was the song for me? did I make it my own? could you hear the emotion i was trying to convey? Did you dance..or sway..or just close your eyes..or did you hurry and click to the next sub

This really doesnt have to be so hard. I've gotten my share of tens..and I have gotten my share of 7's ..and I am sure I have deserved some 3's... I hope..lawd i hope.. I never hit the OH MY GOD one .

Good luck making your decision. I say make the options available..and then its up to the individual what parts they wish to participate in.

Anonymous rates can go too ways...either more honest..or revenge..I dont think anyone should be ashamed to be honest with a peer. But..like the others..thats JMO

The site has come a long way since I was first here in FEB. and it seems to be getting better every day KUDOS!

kass

Well, I think its pretty clear...

if you want a ranking, check the box accordingly. Simple.

As for anonymous ranking, I'm totally against it.

Anonymity makes it far too easy for those trolls who just want to go round downranking people for whatever reason, at least with the individual rankings shown, they can be held accountable for their actions, and the singer then has the option to do something about it (ie pm the admin and complain)

If individual rankings are not shown, unless the singer is checking back every 2 minutes, they have no way of knowing whether the score is lower because everyone ranked that way (ie it was a bad track) or if one troll came in and bashed them. and if it was the latter, they have no way of knowing who the troll was.

I say keep it open, and simply encourage the honesty among rankings.

Just my opinion

OK What Now does make a valid point.. but it makes it EXTREMELY diffacult with 200 some charictors available to do it an complete all your thoughts in.. for me that is NOT ENOUGH TIME. that's why if it's really too much to ask in bumping up the size or amount to ... lets say a round number of 400 charictors? I believe the mis-communications and several issues can disappear also.

If not, Then, I still would push for am PM style way of critiqueing.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

I agree bum, i mentioned that before but no reply, it may have got lost... i always have to edit my comments....

Atomic said:



This is as close to the reality we're talking about here. At least for those who still want to rank and be ranked.
Atomic, I'm 100% behind the brilliant point you made.

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I dream of songs of love, peace and harmony.

I'm sorry Tony, With all due respect, I have to disagree here at this point on anonymous ranking.. The admin should still be able to watch it as it unfolds if there is a trend. it just looks bad to have a few that get unearned high/low numbers or none at all... consistantly. UNFORTUNATELY....

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Brian D.
(BHB)

Where & how do I start to address this?

Let me start with the fact that although, the singer or the voter will not be able to see the individual ranks, the moderators will. This should allow us to see who may be unfairly ranking submissions.

One point that you and others have brought up is accountability. This can be a serious issue.

As I have stated previously, I feel that many are not 'honestly' ranking submissions because of others seeing how they ranked. Then they will potentially receive 'revenge ranks.' However, by not having the singer see what rank the individual has given there is a lower possibility of this occurring.

While what you say may be true, that some individuals may just give the singer a low rank for whatever reason. The singer should not be concerned with who it was that gave them a lower/higher rank. The ranking system is just away to evaluate yourselves against the other performers.

(Orginally, we had created the top ranked members/songs - to be the best of the best! However, almost everyone and every song is a 10!?)

Whether or not the singer is able to see the individual ranks, the comments that are provided should be a better indication of the performance. In the comment section the individual should take the opportunity to explain. And the singer has the ability to reply to the comment.

Also, as many have pointed out - Currently, when a singer submits a song they have the option to choose whether or not to allow it to be ranked. This still permits others to comment.

I believe this new system will create a more inviting atmosphere for singers who wish, to be ranked more accurately. It is a "secret ballot", a more democratic method of selecting the best performers. While still allowing everyone to comment - whether it is a critique or otherwise. With the new system, no one will know what they were actually ranked by an individual, therefore there would be no reason to complain.

When we originally developed this we had some ideas and tried to implement them. As this section has grown, we have received a great deal of wonderful feedback, ideas, comments and (well) we have learned. I am still attempting to implement many of these.

Note: We will not be removing the comment section, however I have re-developed a script that will increase the characters from 255 to 400. This should allow for additional space if needed.

Also, I am currently working a method to include the PM system from the forums in the Singer's Showcase. And, yes, I am still trying to figure a script for the individual song counts...

Keep them ideas & comments coming...

Phill, I like this so far...

Quote:

Austin Powers "YEAH BABY!!!"

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Brian D.
(BHB)

Phill:
This is what I think of you:
Attentive, Fast and Efficient
WAY TO GO NOW WE"RE HAVING FUN
CONGRATULATIONS

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I dream of songs of love, peace and harmony.