Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing

The rest just buy soda or popcorn or both.

If they are buying, then they are like any other paying customer. If you don't let them sing like anyone else, you are opening yourself and the bar to a discrimination/human rights suit. Now you can spread them over the rotation or get them done all at once. Now if they are not buying anything, then you can use your local loitering laws, if applicable.

We have a No Loitering policy. But, if someone is buying soft drinks, they're not really loitering. So, what I would do is tell management what is going on, and that you plan on not letting them up after it starts to get busy. I would tell them that priority goes to the customers buying alcohol (only if they complained). They'll get the hint.

TroyVnd27 wrote:

I bet the Liquor Control Board would be in your knickers immediately if they heard that. And boy, would it ever be a thing you don't want an opposing attorney in a dram shop case to find out....

mckyj57 wrote:

TroyVnd27 wrote:

I bet the Liquor Control Board would be in your knickers immediately if they heard that. And boy, would it ever be a thing you don't want an opposing attorney in a dram shop case to find out....

I don't see how Dram Shop laws apply here whatsoever. As an independent contractor, I choose who sings and when. As long as the bar is not repeatedly giving me instructions on how to run my show, then what I do will have no bearing on any cases brought forth under Dram Shop statutes.

Last week I had my normal Thursday show. This is a small town country bar that isn't very busy at all. I get maybe 30 or so people total in the place on a regular basis, and we are attempting to build business the best we can. It seems to be working so far. But the last few weeks, I have had an issue that I have never had to deal with before. I have a few regulars that are "special", to be polite and politically correct. Last week, I had 5 of these "special" people, all of which are mentally challenged (slow) and they all sang. Now, I have never turned down someone to sing because of their lack of singing ability, that goes with the territory of karaoke. But all 5 of these people are really HORRIBLE, and that is being kind. And it makes the rest of the regulars want to go outside.

What I am worried about is this, these "special" people making it so that the rest of the people will eventually not come in at all. Of the 5, only 1 of them actually spends money on drinks. The rest just buy soda or popcorn or both. These "special" people are for the most part, really nice, sweet people that others just "tolerate", but never befriend, which I find sad. However, with that said, these "special" people might turn a building business into a losing proposition if they continue making others want to leave.

What are some of your opinions and suggestions on this matter? Your input is genuinely appreciated.

Scott

Chip, replace "special persons" with black, Asian, Jewish, etc and see where that gets a bar. Discrimination is discrimination. Tell Al Sharpton he can't go into your bar and sing karaoke because he's a sucky singer and see where that will get you. "The right to refuse service" is right up there with "This amusement park is not responsible for any deaths or injuries on rides".

Author:	mrscott [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
Last week I had my normal Thursday show. This is a small town country bar that isn't very busy at all. I get maybe 30 or so people total in the place on a regular basis, and we are attempting to build business the best we can. It seems to be working so far. But the last few weeks, I have had an issue that I have never had to deal with before. I have a few regulars that are "special", to be polite and politically correct. Last week, I had 5 of these "special" people, all of which are mentally challenged (slow) and they all sang. Now, I have never turned down someone to sing because of their lack of singing ability, that goes with the territory of karaoke. But all 5 of these people are really HORRIBLE, and that is being kind. And it makes the rest of the regulars want to go outside. What I am worried about is this, these "special" people making it so that the rest of the people will eventually not come in at all. Of the 5, only 1 of them actually spends money on drinks. The rest just buy soda or popcorn or both. These "special" people are for the most part, really nice, sweet people that others just "tolerate", but never befriend, which I find sad. However, with that said, these "special" people might turn a building business into a losing proposition if they continue making others want to leave. What are some of your opinions and suggestions on this matter? Your input is genuinely appreciated. Scott

Author:	DannyG2006 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
The only time I ever cut someone from singing was not because she was horrible, which she was, but because she was too drunk to sing and it wasn't me who cut her off, it was the bartender. This happened Friday night. I too am trying to build business for this bar as it is a new show.

Author:	mckyj57 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
See if you can talk them into getting up all together....

Author:	SwingcatKurt [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
What you will need to do is quietly inform bar management/owner of the situation and inform them of what is occuring. Let bar management then take appropriate action toward informing them that they will have to move along. It is not for you to THROW ANYONE OUT. That is for bar managament/owner to see to. But you are correct in your assessnemt that they will evnetually kill your crowd.

Author:	Murray C [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
mrscott wrote: The rest just buy soda or popcorn or both. They may not be buying alcohol, but they are buying. Personally, I would never walk out on these people just because of their singing ability. There are plenty of others I would take a "phone break" from because of their so-called singing, or more accurately, their singing arrogance. You have a tough choice and I cannot really advise which way to go without knowing the circumstances first hand. But do you really want to deny these people their enjoyment due to the whims of others? Maybe talk to them and see if you can get them to bring in a whole heap of their friends who will spend money at the bar. Then you won't have to worry about losing a few shallow customers!

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Author:	c. staley [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
Are you in business to make money at the club or voluteer "feel good" services for the challenged? I'm not trying to sound calloused here, but you mentioned that of the 5, maybe 1 buys drinks and the rest popcorn, soft drinks etc... The short version of this story is that they will kill your business while they will just love you for letting them sing. So you will be making 5 very marginal spenders drive away the other 25 regular club patrons.... Not a good mathematical equation for you. If you want to "help them out" and not hurt your club work then you'll have to compromise and so will they: Tell them you'll start an hour early just for them and at the end of that hour, they are done for the night. This way, they get to sing and you get to make them happy. You'll have to see what the club thinks about it though. Otherwise, your only other options are: #1. Treat them like everyone else - and they will kill your gig. #2. Boot them or have them booted and be the bad guy - with a job. Years ago, I had a woman that was horrible... and every song she sang sounded the same..... monotone and just plain bad. The owner wanted her out and I told the owner he had to do it himself because my job was to get the audience involved, not throw them out. He set her limit to 3 songs. After 3, she was instructed to see the owner when she turned in her 4th slip. She complained, and owner explained that she had come into the bar, had her food and her drinks and even sang 3 songs and beyond that, she was driving business away. She could either stay with the people she knows, or simply go elsewhere. She eventually left.

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
We have a No Loitering policy. But, if someone is buying soft drinks, they're not really loitering. So, what I would do is tell management what is going on, and that you plan on not letting them up after it starts to get busy. I would tell them that priority goes to the customers buying alcohol (only if they complained). They'll get the hint. Who cares if you piss them off and lose them. That's the way it is!

Author:	DannyG2006 [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
I'm willing to bet that drinking has nothing to do with why they are there and socialization and the chance to sing is their primary goal. Find out if they belong to a nonprofit social agency and offer to put on a show for them if you feel bad about having to cut them out of the rotation. I do a show for a nonprofit that serves the Mentally Ill at a cut rate. They have their good singers and they have their bad but because they understand that it's a social gathering and it's karaoke and not American Idol, the ones that do not sing, of which there is very few, all clap for everyone.

Author:	Cueball [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
OK, here's my take on this.... If these "Special" people are really that bad, and they are driving away business, it would be up to Management to step in and say something to them, not you. You should keep running your show the way you normally would. Here's a suggestion. Assuming these 5 "Special" people get up back to back in the Rotation to sing, why don't you stagger them. Put each of them up, in turn, but separate each of them by 1 to 2 singers . Hearing 1 bad singer doesn't necessarily drive everyone out of the Bar. It may cause some to take an extra trip to the bathroom, or a trip outside for a smoke, but then they come back inside to their seats. Now, if you had 5 really horrible singers up in a row (and this isn't restricted to just those "Special" people), then I could understand other people/customers wanting to leave (because they might start thinking, "When will this end?"). But, if you space them apart, and have 1 or 2 good singers in between them, the Audience might be more tolerant of the less than stellar Performers.

Author:	timberlea [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
If they are buying, then they are like any other paying customer. If you don't let them sing like anyone else, you are opening yourself and the bar to a discrimination/human rights suit. Now you can spread them over the rotation or get them done all at once. Now if they are not buying anything, then you can use your local loitering laws, if applicable.

Author:	c. staley [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
timberlea wrote: If they are buying, then they are like any other paying customer. If you don't let them sing like anyone else, you are opening yourself and the bar to a discrimination/human rights suit. Now you can spread them over the rotation or get them done all at once. Now if they are not buying anything, then you can use your local loitering laws, if applicable. That may be the laws in CANADA, but not here. Here in the U.S.A., commercial property is still private property -not public property- and each and every club owner has the right to refuse service to anyone entering their club for any reason. Not to mention that as a KJ, I also have the right to "refuse service" to anyone I want, for any number of subjective reasons. Singing a karaoke song in the U.S.A. is not some kind of "human right" that you can scream any sort of discrimination is committed. Apparently, this is not the case in Canada? "No shoes, no shirt, no service" can include a myriad of other conditions as well and not just those set forth by the health department. Any patron refused an opportunity to sing a karaoke song in a club wouldn't have a leg to stand on. They could file a suit alright, but the chances of it going anywhere will be slim to none. Nice try.

Author:	mckyj57 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
TroyVnd27 wrote: We have a No Loitering policy. But, if someone is buying soft drinks, they're not really loitering. So, what I would do is tell management what is going on, and that you plan on not letting them up after it starts to get busy. I would tell them that priority goes to the customers buying alcohol (only if they complained). They'll get the hint. I bet the Liquor Control Board would be in your knickers immediately if they heard that. And boy, would it ever be a thing you don't want an opposing attorney in a dram shop case to find out....

Author:	mrscott [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
All good points of view to consider here. Thank you for your responses so far. Yes, I already stagger the singers, so as to not have 15-20 minutes of torture on everyone. 3-5 is bad enough. I feel that I should treat them like anyone else, but it is going to kill my show eventually, that I am sure of. Management is never involved in what happens, in fact, the owner has never been to my show in the year+that I have been hosting there. Only the bartender and me, that's it. So, if anyone is going to be a "bad guy", it is going to have to be me, and THAT is something I am not comfortable with. Again, thank you for your responses so far. Scott

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
mckyj57 wrote: TroyVnd27 wrote: We have a No Loitering policy. But, if someone is buying soft drinks, they're not really loitering. So, what I would do is tell management what is going on, and that you plan on not letting them up after it starts to get busy. I would tell them that priority goes to the customers buying alcohol (only if they complained). They'll get the hint. I bet the Liquor Control Board would be in your knickers immediately if they heard that. And boy, would it ever be a thing you don't want an opposing attorney in a dram shop case to find out.... I don't see how Dram Shop laws apply here whatsoever. As an independent contractor, I choose who sings and when. As long as the bar is not repeatedly giving me instructions on how to run my show, then what I do will have no bearing on any cases brought forth under Dram Shop statutes.

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Author:	mckyj57 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
TroyVnd27 wrote: mckyj57 wrote: TroyVnd27 wrote: We have a No Loitering policy. But, if someone is buying soft drinks, they're not really loitering. So, what I would do is tell management what is going on, and that you plan on not letting them up after it starts to get busy. I would tell them that priority goes to the customers buying alcohol (only if they complained). They'll get the hint. I bet the Liquor Control Board would be in your knickers immediately if they heard that. And boy, would it ever be a thing you don't want an opposing attorney in a dram shop case to find out.... I don't see how Dram Shop laws apply here whatsoever. As an independent contractor, I choose who sings and when. As long as the bar is not repeatedly giving me instructions on how to run my show, then what I do will have no bearing on any cases brought forth under Dram Shop statutes. I was talking about your suggested requirement to buy alcohol.

Author:	Bazza [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
I agree with most of the above. Tell management, and let them decide. When a really bad singer goes up and someone asks "Why did you let them sing?" I say: "I am like a bartender. If someone orders a sh1tty drink...I give them a sh1tty drink. I am not the Karaoke police".

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
You know, I had this situation happen before (kind of). I remember writing about it in another thread. It was my first night at this bar. I was only doing a fill-in, but I was hoping it would lead to more. The bar owner was mad at me for playing dance music (despite the fact that I had many people dancing and very few singers). When he came up to confront me, he even asked me "And why are you letting that "f-ing retard" sing?" I won't bother with the rest of the story, but that's 2 more cents from me.

Author:	timberlea [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
Chip, replace "special persons" with black, Asian, Jewish, etc and see where that gets a bar. Discrimination is discrimination. Tell Al Sharpton he can't go into your bar and sing karaoke because he's a sucky singer and see where that will get you. "The right to refuse service" is right up there with "This amusement park is not responsible for any deaths or injuries on rides".

Author:	Lonman [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
mrscott wrote: Last week I had my normal Thursday show. This is a small town country bar that isn't very busy at all. I get maybe 30 or so people total in the place on a regular basis, and we are attempting to build business the best we can. It seems to be working so far. But the last few weeks, I have had an issue that I have never had to deal with before. I have a few regulars that are "special", to be polite and politically correct. Last week, I had 5 of these "special" people, all of which are mentally challenged (slow) and they all sang. Now, I have never turned down someone to sing because of their lack of singing ability, that goes with the territory of karaoke. But all 5 of these people are really HORRIBLE, and that is being kind. And it makes the rest of the regulars want to go outside. What I am worried about is this, these "special" people making it so that the rest of the people will eventually not come in at all. Of the 5, only 1 of them actually spends money on drinks. The rest just buy soda or popcorn or both. These "special" people are for the most part, really nice, sweet people that others just "tolerate", but never befriend, which I find sad. However, with that said, these "special" people might turn a building business into a losing proposition if they continue making others want to leave. What are some of your opinions and suggestions on this matter? Your input is genuinely appreciated. Scott Well being the father of a 'special' person, i'd be pissed as hell if they were denied the same rights that anyone else have. I have had many 'special' people on my stage, and if your audiences had any couth, they would cheer & support instead of shun & walk out. What lack of class!

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ethics question, when to "not" let someone sing
timberlea wrote: Chip, replace "special persons" with black, Asian, Jewish, etc and see where that gets a bar. Discrimination is discrimination. Tell Al Sharpton he can't go into your bar and sing karaoke because he's a sucky singer and see where that will get you. "The right to refuse service" is right up there with "This amusement park is not responsible for any deaths or injuries on rides". Actually, if the bar has a no loitering policy and they enforce it equally, then there is no problem. It is only when it is enforced with prejudice that there would be a problem. I have water drinkers. Normally, they are older and they sing old depressing country (I love country, especially classics!) They aren't usually a problem - when the bar starts getting busy/rowdy on Fri/Sat, they usually find their way to the exits. BUT, if I do have a water drinker/loiterer, then I will absolutely skip them if they CANNOT sing in favor of someone who can sing (even just a little) and is providing the bar with sales (food OR alcohol) - which determines whether or not I am going to keep that gig.