Karaoke Forums

Just announced on Latshaw Systems's facebook page:



Game on!

HUMMM. So Latshaw is saying they can not be sued for linking to sites "since it would link to sites around the world where downloaded content may violate copyright agreements in this country (or others), " Does anyone know if a user could be sued for using the sites ?

Of course, anybody can be sued for anything.
Evidence of wrong doing is not necessary.
It's a common thing for one party to sue another in search of a settlement for an easy dollar or to simply exercise some level of control over another.
It's very possible and maybe even likely that Latshaw will be sued.
Often times a company will resort to using a nuisance suit to pressure another to bend to thier will.
If he's earning enough money from his business to fight the suit he will probably win.

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No you can't be sued for using the sites (at least not today). You're protected by international trade treaty. As long as you don't purchase something from another country that's on the list of items banned from import, you have the legal right to purchase something from another country and own it here in the U.S., and music is not something that is banned from importing. You just need to make sure the site you're purchasing from is properly licensed from the music publishing entity for that region. In Europe, the entity is called PRS, and you can contact them to find out if a specific site is in fact legally licensed to sell tracks.

As far as I know, technically the UK sites aren't supposed to sell to customers outside of Europe, but they allow it anyway because the UK government and PRS have no incentive to stop the money coming in. The beauty of it is that the American music publishers and the UK publishers can't step on each others toes. They each have their own jurisdiction and they're confined to only what is sold in their jurisdiction.

Just to give you an example, I once purchased a used Queen CD in a record store and the CD was originally only sold in the UK. Someone brought it over or an import company imported it. Anyhow, the CD was not illegal in the U.S. at all, but since the CD was produced and sold in the UK, the music licensing was paid in the UK, and hence the American publishers couldn't suddenly claim that the music wasn't properly licensed. It was properly licensed. The only difference is that the original artist got paid through PRS (the UK licensing entity), and not through an American publisher.

Back when music stores were all around, almost all (well at least the good ones) had an "imports" section, and it's always been perfectly legal to purchase music that was imported from another country. Now, as far as using it for public performances, you are covered under your venue's BMI/ASCAP public performance licenses (provided they're paid), AND you're not controlled by the American publishers rules for that song, because again, that song's "rights" were granted to you by the licensing entity in the country it was sold in and out of the jurisdiction of the American publishers. Publishers and Governments of other countries can and do have rules about who they can sell to, but, once it's imported into this country, unless the U.S. bans it (and they haven't yet), you're safe as a kitten and that foreign country or licensing entity can't touch you.

That being said, if you ask me, you are actually more safe from prosecution with imported tracks than from tracks you buy here in America. You're protected to purchase it from international treaties, and you're protected from the American publishers because the licensing of that track is out of their jurisdiction (provided it was properly licensed in the country you purchased it from). American publishers hate it with a passion because they can't come after you, and they can't cross borders and stop the other country from selling it to you, and once you own it, they can't control how you use it.

Look it up. All of this info is readily available on the internet. If you're still unsure, do some internet research and try to find a DJ or KJ who was ever prosecuted for buying a track from another country that was legally licensed. Believe me, I've searched. No such case exists.

I think the only thing we need to worry about is the possibility that foreign countries will actually start enforcing bans on sales to U.S. residents. If that starts to happen, our choices will start to get limited real fast. Every country, and it's licensing entity doesn't really have any incentive to stop looking the other way with these sales because of the money that's coming in, but all it would take is one stingy artist to threaten to sue their licensing ageny over this, and it very well could lead to tighter regulations. These may actually BE the golden days of legal international downloads, so i say we enjoy it while we can. I'm already making sure I'm getting tracks that you can't get in the U.S. in case that day ever comes. Let's hope it doesn't.

currently the only restriction is sale to the U.S. for redsale. end user is clear.
my take, and i believe every karaoke manu will agree with me, is that the U.S. publishers are pissed that they can not charge 5,000 times for the same use of a track. in the U.K. they pay the rights holder to use the track, no one goes without payment. but in the U.S. they want to charge for using everything. that is the note i used, pay me....that is the same guitar i used, pay me....that is the chorus pedal i used, pay me.....
the rights holders are compensated in the U.K., the tracks are legally produced in the U.K., i can legally buy them from the U.K., outside of that, not my problem. no one is going without getting paid for their product.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

This may be an unpopular sentiment,(and I know Lonnie would cringe) but I don't give a crap who gets paid. I am buying downloads from the UK until America gets off its BUTTOCKS and gets with the program. LEGALIZE, OR LEGITIMIZE AMERICAN KARAOKE DOWNLOADS!!!!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Don't just single me out, there are MANY with the same opinion.
However, I do buy from UK manus, they paid their royalties to the artist on their end and (although I may be wrong) I feel if the bar is also paying the PRO fees to all the publishing houses, that those songs are covered as well.

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thoose interested may want to look at this thread also.....viewtopic.php?f=26&t=24388

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

That's an article about a guy who was steering people to pirated content. How is this related to the iCroons project?

The practice of selling goods in the U.S. at "Price x" and selling the same goods overseas at "Price x - y" is rather typical. Prescription drugs are one example, college textbooks are another. In the textbook case, those sold overseas get a new ISBN, and although the book is titled the same, it is called an "International Edition". The price for an international edition is about 10% of the cost for a U.S. edition. Seriously.... 90% off in most cases.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

This country is chock full of greedy bastards!! Our Capitalist system has become nothing but a greed fest!! It sickens me.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I keep seeing posts about overseas content being illegal to use in a commercial show, illegal to download, blah blah blah, but no links showing any KJ being involved in legal action for doing so. Who ever heard of thousands of people violating a law and nobody ever being prosecuted? Who is enforcing or prohibiting it? Only people who discuss it here are cheerleaders who must be afraid that if it continues to grow, sc content will continue to lose value and their "advantage" will be gone.

If you read Latshaw's post and conclusion that he can not be sued for linking to other sites and then read this lawsuit it appears that at least one person was sued for providing nothing more than links....I find them similar situations

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

There is no comparison.
Unless you seek to imply that Latshaw intends to aid in the commision of a crime.

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KNOW THYSELF

when PRC states (directly from an email...headers and footers removed to comply with TOS of this site)

"The SG6 licence does not cover online rights, so for a download service such as this you would need to apply for the LOML+, details of which can be found at http://www.prsformusic.com/users/broadc ... fault.aspx
Just to confirm this licence covers the UK only. If companies are looking to target the US for example, they would need to approach the US society for a licence." and no such society or licencing exists (per my detailed research and MANY replies from those who are well versed in the legalities and dealing with the music industry) ....I would think he is walking in a VERY GREY area. At sometime in the future this may change and I for one would be very pleased even with the increased costs involved.

Even karaokelan states in his posts a few up "As far as I know, technically the UK sites aren't supposed to sell to customers outside of Europe, but they allow it anyway because the UK government and PRS have no incentive to stop the money coming in. The beauty of it is that the American music publishers and the UK publishers can't step on each others toes. They each have their own jurisdiction and they're confined to only what is sold in their jurisdiction."

and goes on to say " Every country, and it's licensing entity doesn't really have any incentive to stop looking the other way with these sales because of the money that's coming in, but all it would take is one stingy artist to threaten to sue their licensing ageny over this, and it very well could lead to tighter regulations."

I seem to recall a lawsuit brought by SONY against a reseller...sorry I can not locate the link presently ...if they are willing to do this do you really think they (or another artist or publisher) wont to decide to push the matter if the current actions against karaoke theft are not effective ? Karaoke may be a micro market but it does bring cash into those with rights to be preserved (singers/song writers/record labels). Since the karaoke manufactures are not being able to licence the quantity of music (as in the past), they have to make more per licence granted. this is another way thieves are costing ALL Kj's (similar to stores raising priced to make up for shoplifters).

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

So, are you making a case that it's somehow inappropriate for Soundchoice to post links to Karaoke Channel and Clark Music on their website?

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KNOW THYSELF

While the UK manufacturers cannont sell to the US distributors, Customs law allows an individual to bring in one copy of a single CDG at a time for their own use so that is how Clark Music and Selectatrack can still sell to us. Karaoke Channel is for home use so that is how they can do that one.

It is the download license for commercial use that is the stickler. The difference in licensing fees for a UK CDG and a US one may be just pennies. But supposedly the publisher in the US would want a LOT more money for a commerical download so that is something that may catch their attention as far as putting a stop to the imports. ASCAP is a performance license and not a manufacturing/distribution license. It wouldn't compensate the publishers for the difference in fees they could collect from a download license vs. allowing them in from overseas. That is why people are starting to worry about the publishers and downloads.

This guy mentioned in that article was linking people to sites containing pirated material. That's where he broke the law. Why would you imply that iCroons would do the same? It's blatently obvious that Latshaw wants this to be 100% legal content and is clearly taking steps to assure that it is legal. Why are you so against something that would help KJs legally find legal content anywhere in the world? I don't understand your agenda here.

You're always quoting Kurt and his attorney, yet you seem to forget that you're standing behind one of the most sued people in the business, and someone who's done nothing but watch his business deteriorate over the last decade. Meanwhile, Latshaw System's has been growing every year, has never been sued, and appears to be doing all the right things. No matter how hard you try, you can't "redeem" Kurt by constantly pointing the finger at others who haven't yet faultered. It's the equivalent of being a friend of OJ Simpson and constantly pointing the finger at others and warning them that they better hide their gloves. It just makes you look bitter.

The ironic thing is that what iCroons is trying to do, should someday lead to a more level playing field in the karaoke publishing world, and create an environment that had Kurt started with, he wouldn't be in the situation he's in right now. In other words, they're helping fight the demons that brought Sound Choice to its knees in the first place, and frankly, you and Kurt should be grateful, not bitter. I'm sure Kurt's a nice guy, and he and his brother will be forever thanked for the incredible library of karaoke tunes they built over the years, but just like iTunes proved in the regular music world, we live in a world now where the folks who better understand the technology are the ones who needs to hold the reigns now, and the old school way of thinking is dead in the water. It's time to move on. The karaoke world needs this new technology and needs to catch up, especially in this country. Sure, some companies may faulter in their efforts, but trying to discourage them from even trying is NOT the way to go, and trying to discourage KJs from getting behind it is even worse. If you like Kurt's model of still having to buy CDs, or if you think Digitrax's concept of renting music is better, than just say so, but stop being bitter and stop with the unjustified innuendos about legality. People have the legal right to purchase legally licensed music from other countries and always have, and there hasn't been a single lawyer who's said they don't. As far as places like selectatrack having the right to sell to U.S. residents, or iCroons right to link you to that material, that's a legal matter for them and them only, but stop implying that KJs should question their ability to buy this legally licensed material, and stop implying they could get sued for it, because you're wrong.

You just said yourself in your last post that you remember a lawsuit brought my Sony against a reseller. AGAIN, this is against a "reseller" and not a liability of the KJ, so stop implying it is. Until you can find a shread of legal proof that an American KJ was ever breaking the law or sued for purchasing or playing legally licensed music from another country, please stop what you're doing. It's a disservice to every KJ here, and especially the ones who come here to get sound advice.

Sound choice links to Karaoke channel and they list "home Use only"

Clark Music created custom discs...perfectly legal to import 1 copy of discs from overseas.

Different animals in each situation.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey