Karaoke Forums

Yes, the subject has been beat to death. I know that as the entertainment, we are not responsible for the fees, the venue is. But here is my dilemma:

I get a call from one of my shows I have done for a year now. I already know where the conversation is going to go. The owner is a cheap (@$%&#!) with a high end clientele and has not been paying the fees. Well, they came knocking.

She wants to discuss with me what fees I am paying and to whom. The bottom line is she will try to convince me I should be paying HER fees. How do I politely tell her there is no way in hell I am taking care of her responsibility without sounding like the bad guy?

On top of this, it is a tourist bar and the tourist season is over. She want's to discuss "other" issues with me too. I can read these bar owners like an instruction manual at this point. She is expecting me to take a pay cut. Too bad. I will NOT do it. Karaoke nights have still been doing great, and all of her patrons love my show. I have five shows at this point, so if it boils down to me dropping it because she refuses to pay $150, so be it. I am sure I would get called back, unless she gets some joker in there for half price there is no reason to replace me. That issue I am not too worried about.

The bottom line is, can I get any advise about the ASCAP fees before I call her back? Will do so on Wednesday.

I wouldn't be nice about it at all. If you are prepared to walk, then you totally have the upper hand. That doesn't mean you have to be an (@$%&#!) about it, but just let her know exactly what your position is.

-James

Tell her that under the ASCAP et al rule you are not allowed to. Further inform her that the fees cover karaoke, jukebox, radios, televisions, etc and for her to expect you to contibute is completely unfair.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Great info from this thread about Ascap/BMI fees. I'm sure there's a lot more regarding the subject matter if you use the search button. Good luck!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22882&p=319435&hilit=Little+Info+On+BMI%2FASCAP+Fee#p319435

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To be fortunate enough to derive an income from a source as fulfilling as karaoke music has got to be as close to heaven as we can get here on earth!

those fee's also cover size of venue and size of dance floor...... the larger capacity for people the higher the rates for the ascap fee's.

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It's all good!

I'd be ready to walk if she tried to put it on you! It's not your business to pay, it's is the bars - if they want entertainment, that is the price they pay!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I would be ready to walk, but being the wise a## that I am. I would find out how much they are trying to charge her , calculate the % of that bill that karaoke is costing (don't forget to factor in tv's not on karaoke during shows etc) then say I would gladly chip in the $1.26 a week or whatever that it breaks down to.

Better yet, tell your regulars about the licensing dilemma and get them to all chip in a 25 cent cover every night and make a joke out of it.

Just had this conversation, along with other things, with my bar this weekend. They really didn't know how it all worked but had been paying because Ascap/BMI told them they had to. I think they explained it to the bar but it seemed like double dipping to them and that my music purchase should cover it. I explained there are different levels of licenses and I couldn't pay the performance part and they felt better about it. If they can't understand, it might not be worth the gig, or it wouldn't for me anyway.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread (or that other thread) ASCAP and BMI are publishing rights agencies. Their fees go to paying the writers and publishers (who own the copyrights) of the music. It does not go to wealthy artists who "already got paid" when you buy the CD. Licensing for music/movies/etc that are played in public is different than it is for private purchase and use in your home. People agree to this license simply by making the purchase/use of that in public. It's not negotiable in any way other than simply NOT using it. You don't own it. If you don't like the rules, don't use it or make your own music that is not licensed with ASCAP or BMI. Intellectual property law is a convoluted mess and gets worse with karaoke because of the mechanical rights etc. It can still be boiled down to common sense though. By using it you expressly agree to the usage rules set forth by whoever owns that IP. If any of us wrote a song that was turned into a hit by Gaga or Garth, you know damn well that person would be fighting tooth and nail to get what they are owed!

If Garth Brooks records "The Dance" he gets paid for that of course through various means. However, the WRITER of the track gets paid (partially) based on these ASCAP/BMI fees as does the publishing house. The writer is not necessarily wealthy even though it was he/she that created the song. It's Garth who gets all the glory as well as the high-dollar touring fees. I once met a songwriter in Nashville who wrote a song that a premier, Nashville act heard and liked so they recorded it. Not Garth, but that caliber. This songwriter didn't write it FOR this artist, but the artist turned it into a huge hit. The song was "bought" from them for certain amount that the writer got up front. It wasn't huge, but at least they could afford sushi for a while... ASCAP fees are how the writer gets their real pay for it. This writer is not wealthy and they didn't get the glory.

It's a common misconception that these fees go to the small percentage of wealthy artists that we hear on the radio, generating all the ill-will towards paying the fees. That's not at all what it's about. MOST musicians are not wealthy. That's where this money goes.

I found a great article on this subject and shamelessly stole it to post on my site:

http://www.karaokeacrossamerica.com/fun-stuff/letter-to-emily-white

(with full credit given of course!)

Nobody wants to pay money for anything do they? We don't want to pay taxes either, but we accept that it does cost something to run the country. Same with these fees. It's hard to find sympathy for people who willfully disregard simple right and wrong because they simply want what they want. There is a lot of ignorance out there and venue owners are not exempt. If they play copyrighted music (TV, CD, radio, live....whatever) they owe these fees. I'm not suggesting that they go running to ASCAP and BMI volunteering to pay, but it is part of the price of doing business. If the venue owner wanted you KJ's to work for free would you do it? Why should the people who actually created the music you play be any different?

If you can't run with the big dogs....

My response to owners asking about the fees is twofold. First that the fees have to be paid by the establishment. And second that if they are expecting performers to contribute towards those fees the price will go up as that was not part of my cost of business calculation when quoting the original price.

Could somebody tell KA, almost nobody on here disagrees with what he says, but the point is......the venue pays the fees.......if the entertainment wants to chip in......it's out of the goodness of their heart....

You could just tell me yourself....

Please notice I made no statement about the KJ contributing to these fees. The venue is the one responsible. I was speaking to the idea of whether they should be paid.

Party on!

Of course they should be paid. Some bar owners/managers don't think they have to though. The club I work in now didn't think they needed to because they are tribal (this was back in 93) - they were wrong & got nailed for at least 3 years retro back pay. They pay all 3 now.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Awesome!!

You know, I just thought of a strategy for KJ's that get asked to "chip in" directly or indirectly for these fees: Simply ask them if they are going to help "chip in" for fuel surcharge and business insurance fees and if they ask how much that is, tell them that exactly equals the amount the bar owner wants them to chip in for ASCAP fees...

Lon, I sent you a Facebook friend request about 30 years ago and you haven't responded. Any chance you will?

Not that I'm nitpickin' but I think 30 yrs was a typo. Facebook was launched in 2004. Cheers.

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To be fortunate enough to derive an income from a source as fulfilling as karaoke music has got to be as close to heaven as we can get here on earth!

It wasn't a typo, it was a joke. Unfortunately, I forgot my sarcasm font at home this morning....

If one is stupid enough to pay part or all of the ABC fees then don't be surprised when the venue asks you to pay for the liquor licence. Those fees is a part of the venues "cost of doing business", not the host.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Apparently only if they get sued for it. ASCAP and BMI are famous for attempting to collect "artist fees", yet equally famous for withholding said fees from the artists unless sued for them...

Sorry, but they are not the good guys.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

At OP: Have you talked to her yet? What happened, if?

My post sounded a bit sarcastic, and I'm sorry about that. Just wanted you to know, people on here agree with your statement, but I think the question was if the KJ should pay any of the fees.....heck, I guess my take on this post could be wrong anyway.... ..I've been wrong many times before.. ......if that's the case, like Gilda Radner's character used to say......never mind.....