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I went to a club in the burbs that I used to frequent just to escape the rush hour and to exploit the happy hour. Turns out they're having a pro KJ come in to start the show at 8pm. The girl behind the bar was making the drinks extra strong and at the end of HH I was ready to sing. The KJ starts up the show and I was fourth in the rotation, and there were about 6 others behind me. After I finished my number, I turned in my next slip. In a fair world, I should up again in 10 songs; the 6 people behind me and the three who came before me, but as the ones behind me were singing, about 10 more players came in and they were added to the end of the first round. So I had to wait 20 songs instead of 10. This process continued through the night, and I ended up only doing the two songs, where if it were "sing one/bring one" I'm sure I could've done 4, while maybe some of the later arrivals would only do one, which IMHO, is fair, since I'd been dumping cash into the register ever since the start of the HH.

In too many clubs, I've seen what the KJ considers to be their "regular' system go out the window. One of my favorite KJs has an assistant (what they're assisting in, I still haven't been able to figure out). The KJ lays her slips out to the right. The assistant lays his out to the left. It's a real crapshoot as to when you may sing. I'd love to see these two deal cards!
The sing one-bring one places I go to work okay, but the best systems I've seen are where the folsk keep the rotations on a computer. Neater, and easier to shift around and make sure they're being equitable with the crowd.
I guess we're all at the mercy of the whims of the host/hostess that night for the most part. Maybe there's a Nobel Prize if you can figure out a goof-proof system.
Me, I'm keen to just a nice spot close to the speaker, and sing if I get the chance.

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Being these people came in during the 1st round, then I can see the KJ putting them at the end of it.
The Sing One Bring One means different things in different places. For me it just means I don't want you to bring up a stack full of slips & when you sing, bring the next song you want up.
There is absolutely no right way to run a rotation. Whatever system that is used is going to tick someone off in some capacity. Whatever rotation method is used, as long as it's consistant & everyone understands how it works, just get used to it.

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Fortunately, I don't have to get used to it. It was just a weakness for me to get mixed up with that karaoke nite, and I won't make the mistake again. Myself and the bartender at the regular club designed and implemented the system from the ground up. I've been all over, seen everything from rotations to chalk boards, but I think the only fair order is one-at-a-time, in the order they're handed in. Simple too, except for the oddballs that try to put up more than one, but they've learned that the second slip might get lost alltogether, and its safer for them to stick with the program. Latecomers get put up at the end of line, but they are assured that won't see same person sing twice before they get put up, and they know that their slip is going to hold its position, and not get backed up everytime some yahoo walks in off the street.

I guess that's where different kj's see differently. Everyone at my show will get at least one chance to sing. Obviously the earlier you get there, the more you will sing. I input new singers between the old & it has worked for my group for more than 10 years now - at least the old singers know they will be up soon, instead of waiting (just for the sake of argument 10 new singers walk in) an entire grip of new singers - that's approx 40 more minutes. I don't think it's fair to stick new singers at the end of a round, I would personally rather wait through a couple new singers ahead of me that were just inserted rather than waiting 10 new singers before the round even starts over - but then that's the way rotations are primarily done up here so that's what i'm used to.

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yep, we all have our version of what is fair.

I don't think it's fair to penalize those that have been there supporting you and the venue by bumping people in front of them.

My rotation is simple... it's like a line in the bank. First in - first out. You arrive late, put your name up, and you're at the end of the rotation.

I think it wouldn't matter how a rotation is done... someone somewhere will B**** about it!!

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But even if you have 10 new singers walk in, you stick them in at the end of a rotation - now you have an extra 40 minutes of people that just got there. If they were inserted, then the old singers are going to get up quicker as they will now only have to wait an extra 4-8 minutes depending on how the kj inserts.
But like I said, there is no right way - someone WILL complain no matter what, just as long as it's consistant & the singers understand how it works. This way works for me & I generally don't get many complaints, sure I still get them, but mostly after I cut off ALL slips from being turned in, new & old.
The kj's that really tick me off are the ones that decide to redo an entire rotation kind of like the way a dj would, doing groups of certain types of songs or keeping dance songs together not giving any kind of rotation a consideration.

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Funny thing about the bank scenerio. I was in line at the bank making a deposit & the line was huge, their was a teller asking who was making a deposit, I was the only one to raise my hand, she took me up to her window & I was in & out - so even the line theory can be manipulated.

What about the double sided drive through espresso stands, you get a line of 6 cars on one side & no one on the other, now 2 cars pull up - even though the 6 cars were there first, they usually serve back & forth, if they are good makers, they will be able to serve both at once, but the 2 new cars are going to get served before the 6 cars were through, this may not seem fair either, but it is a fact of the drive through espresso line - pick the shorter side.

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So if we don't like the wait at your show we should go somewhere else?

Rotations vary by venue and mostly people just want a rotation that's FAIR.

The problem I have with the larger show I do is that most people take a shuttle to the location and they arrive 20-30 at a time every 15-20 minutes for the first 2-3 hours I'm doing the show. When do I add the new singers? At the end of the existing rotation I'm working on? In the rotation after this? When I'm darn good and ready? When I get bribed to do it? Ok, so I'm getting far fetched, but I do my best to keep it fair.

I'm still trying to work it out, but when I tried adding them to the existing rotation I ended up with a constant string of new people and finally gave up and started the rotation over with new people scattered through the middle. At this particular show I could have run a single rotation for close to 3 hours with no one singing twice. Instead to keep the people that showed up first and are usually the ones wanting to sing the most happy I would bring them up every 60-90 minutes (6 hour+ show) and have them sing. I had basically two types of singers - the people w/ 5-6 songs they want to sing (regular karaoke goers) and the people with 1-2 songs (who just show up to party). Most of the 'regulars' sang 4-5 times that night and I had a string of new singers constantly over that 6 hours. My average wait time at one point was just over 2 hours.

During the whole night I had probably 20-30 people ask when they would be up, and only one complaint. The one complaint was from a guy who wasn't listening when I called his name (at least a half dozen times) and at the end of the night pitched a fit that I didn't call his name and made a HUGE stink about it. You can't make everyone happy, but I think that the majority of the people that were there were happy with the results. BTW, my pain walked off in a huff saying he didn't want to sing now, then came back saying he did - I put him on - he tried to sing (too drunk) and when the song was over he left. I don't know if he was happy, felt vindicated or not. I'll know when my next show comes up next week when (if) he shows up.

Remember, each show is different - some have people show up all night, some have 150 people show up within the first hour (or at the location waiting for the start). I'm sure each KJ here on the board does their best to run a fair rotation within the limits of how people show up, how they handle turning in songs, the length of the show, the type of people at the show, etc. Because of the variables involved we each have methods that work for our show that wouldn't necessarily work for others.

For example, I used a bring a stack up method before and at the next show I'll be trying the sing one-bring one method. At this point I'll try anything to get the rotation under control and keep it fair! Well, except for the 'sign-up' sheet. I MUCH prefer slips...

K.I.S.S

I wouldn't expect anybody to stay if they didn't feel it was a fair round. But again, any given weekend night I can have upwards to 40 singers & the wait can get pretty long.

On the people that take the shuttle, because they couldn't fit into the first shuttle & had to wait for a later shuttle, now they are considered late comers & will have to wait an entire rotation to sing? I'm assuming that the 20-30 at a time are not singers, probably more like 5-10 are going to sing?? So now you stick them at the end of the working rotation & now the people that were there early don't get to sing for another 20-40 minutes while they wait for all the newcomers??? - am I correct in my assumption?

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I don't understand why people think that latecomers should be "punished" just because they are not there at the beginning of the show.

I go to the shows early for two reasons:

1) I like to be at the beginning of a rotation as I don't like to have to wait till the very end of the night to sing my last song. If the last rotation starts at 12:00, I know I will be able to sing and be home earlier, rather than have to wait until 1:00 to sing.

2) I know that the shows are slow at the beginning, which is good because then I can sing a few songs already, and when it gets busy, can also have the option to go as I know I have sang a few songs already (plus, when it gets packed, I can't stand the smoke anyway).

Now, when people come in after me, they are going to be added to the list regardless if it is at the end of the rotation or between singers. And with sing one bring one (I still don't get how that works) you can still have a lot of singers, so there will still be wait time. No matter what you do there is waiting.




I totally don't agree with this statement at all. What if someone comes in later than you (if it is a 9:00 start, you are there at 8:00, and they come in at 11:00, show ends at 1:00 to be specific), and brings 20 friends with him? Only one out of the 20 is singing. Well, I am quite sure if those 20 people are all drinking, they are going to be pulling in a lot more money that what one person can drink by themselves...and probably at regular prices too (don't know when the happy hour ends).

So basically you can also say that becuase that ONE singer has brought in so many friends with him to drink, he should get to sing all night because his friends are dumping a lot more money into the cash register??

Exactly my point all along. The singers that got there early are STILL going to have to wait regardless of where you put new singers in. Sticking the new singers all in at the end just make the old singers wait that much more while they are going through all the new ones. If the new singers are inserted, then the old singers are going to get up quicker overall which is STILL supporting the people that have been there all night because they are going to sing at least 1 more than the late comers.
What about the people that CAN'T be there early. Some people work late & don't even get off work until 10, 11, 12 (although coming in this late & expecting to sing is kind of pushing it as I usually cut-off all slips at this point). So now they get off work & want to go sing a song or 2 if possible, but because they get there late, they have to wait a longer time by waiting an entire round to get over??? It's not their fault they couldn't be there earlier.

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Personally, I've always been one to intermingle new singers with the existing ones. A big reason for this is that after a while, I don't even know where the beginning and end of the rotation is. It becomes one big circle. Usually, even if two people hand in their first slips at the same time, they won't sing back to back. There will be at least a song or two in between.

As for putting all the new singers together, there seems to be potential for someone to put their first song in at 11:00, another put their first song in at 12:00, and they sing back to back if no one else puts a song in.

Also, do you consider it different if a person spends three hours purchasing "courage" before putting a slip in, versus a person who walks in and immediately gives you a song before ordering their first drink?

I hope you took my comment as tongue-in-cheek, it wasn't meant as critisism, it was meant more light-hearted. Sometimes it doesn't come across that way though.



Yes, the ppl that come later are either getting off work at that time or couldn't fit in an earlier shuttle (the venue is 10 or 20 miles away and most ppl here don't have vehicles - or don't drive them when they come because they'll be drinking). I've had shuttles with almost all singers and some with only one or two.

The problem is where do you cut the rotation and start a new one? I was adding new singers to the existing rotation and it was getting to be HUGE. I finally cut and started a new rotation and put the 'newer' singers in after some of the ones that had been there longer. Do I say - rotation 1 starts, everyone goes on rotation 2? Doing this by the time rotation 1 ends rotation 2 is 2 hours long (or longer) based on how people show up. I almost put them all in a fishbowl and just pulled at random it was so bad at one point. I had at least 10 ppl that had multiple songs turned in and I was trying to keep fair while still letting new people in.

As for the sing one-bring one, it cuts down on the stacks of slips from singers and keeps the rotation in check. You don't end up with stacks from 6-8 (or more) ppl that you have to pull from. As they sing and slips are turned in you just add them to the end. The final result is an interspersed mix of old and new w/ each person only having 1 slip in at any one time. Hope this makes a little sense.

I rarely take anything someone says as critisism - just a different idea than my own, but then I'm not above critisism & if someone says something that makes me think/rethink my own stance or if I can learn from it, then I take it to heart.



Usually if I have a long first round & people are turning in slips through the entire first round, I will cut-off at a certain point usually 15-20 depending & start filtering the rest of the first round singers into the 2nd. They may have all been there from the start but now it's a matter of WHEN they turned their slip in. If they were there from the start & turn a song in later, then it's their bad. Rotations are going to grow throughout the evening no matter where you place a new singer.
For me, I like to try to give everyone at least 1 chance to sing & my crowds know it. They know they are going to have to wait in a long rotation, but filtering in a new singer between an old is going to get the older singer up quicker than sticking an entire group up at the end of a round.



Exactly. But then if people keep insisting on handing me a stack of slips, I let them know I will pick what I want from their stack & they won't have a choice at that point. It also helps to eliminate the "I had that song up, why are you letting this person sing it??" Well true you may have had that song up, but it was in the stack of 6 (or more) that you gave me which don't mean that the song is locked to you just because you put it up in a stack - which makes me laugh anyway, you get a 20+ person rotation, this will get you maybe 3 songs, why would anyone give you more than 3-4 slips - but then that's a different thread altogether.

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I can totally see your dilemma.

I can't blame you in this case. I would be happy if I had been there forever and you just stopped the rotation and created a new one. I think though, in your case, you will get complainers no matter what!

I do like the fishbowl idea though......I think that is an honest way to do a rotation in a facility that big, just keep on adding new singers in with the old. That way, really no one can complain as it is all left to chance.

My friend does that for her last rotation. When she announces the last rotation, she has people come up and chose names for singers. That way, the newbies get as much as a chance as the ones who have been there all night (if her show goes till 10:00, she ends at 10:00 which is why she does that).

Good luck to you!

But what would happen if there was a fishbowl & (I don't know how this works) you get there at say 10 oclock & turn in your slip while there is a 15 person rotation, they are on singer number 8, your slip goes in a fishbowl & now 15 more new singers get there & turn in their slip & they all go in a fishbowl with yours, you theoretically could be drawn last even though you were there before this other big group??? How would that work???

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Nope. You are totally right. I can see how that can be unfair too, especially cause then there really may be a chance you don't get to sing at all in your scenario.

One day someone will develop the perfect rotation system and then we can all celebrate