Karaoke Forums

We've beaten the whole rotation methodology thing to death. I even touched on "Rethinking New Singer Priority" in one of the latest rotation discussions. I have officially changed my stance; I not longer feel that it is generally fair to those who have been waiting for their turn to be forced to wait while another singer cuts in front of them.

I've always thought "Get the new singers up right away so more people are involved". Many of us agree with that school of thought. And then, we debated about where those singers are then placed in the rotation after they sing their first song. My contention was that new singers must be placed at the end of the rotation, after they sing their next song, for the next spin through the rotation. This is so the singers who initially gave up their spot in the rotation so the new singer could sing their first song weren't forced to wait for them in subsequent rounds.

But, I had to ask myself - Why give new singers priority at all? Is it just because that was the way I was trained, and I have just accepted it as the right thing to do?

Don't we want to reward the people that get there early? Wouldn't it be better if the singers all got there right at the show start? Of course! Then, isn't giving new singers priority penalizing those singers who arrive early? Why should THEY have to wait?

What else are we accomplishing? Here are some things that might happen, both good and bad:

1) We might be "making a friend" by getting a singer up right away, but could this be a zero-sum activity? In other words, is gaining a friend by giving them new singer priority actually costing us friends (referring to the ones that got there at showtime). If your show could use extra singers at the beginning of the night, ask yourself if there is any incentive for singers to get there early.

2) Since many shows don't peak until later in the evening. If singers know they can get right up when they first arrive, aren't we shooting ourselves in the foot by basically encouraging them (or telling them it's ok) if they arrive later?

3) One of our main objectives is to keep customers in the bar as long as possible. Yet, some singers just want to sing 1 or 2 songs and then leave. By getting them up faster, aren't we then expediting their exit from the bar? Would an extra 15-20 minutes of wait time translate into extra sales? While you might not think $15-$20 of sales is a lot in one night, over the course of a year, it adds up.

4) It sucks having to tell a new singer that arrives 3 hours after show start that there's no room for them, but is that our fault? In the long run, will this alienate singers? Or, will it encourage them to get there earlier?

I just can't see the point of getting a singer up right away. After much thought, I think it does more harm than good. So therefore, I have changed my stance and I will now be doing First-Come/First-Served with no new singer priority. Much like that "Amusement Park Method", when a singer is done with their "ride", they will then get back in line, behind anyone who got in line behind them while they were waiting for their turn.

I'm at least going to try it.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

I guess it would also matter how many singers you have. I won't put more than two new singers in at a time. Throw three of the others in, than two more new singers, and so the night goes.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Yep. That's exactly why I do my rotation the way I do. There is no marker in my methodology. There is no start and no finish to my rotation. Plain and simple, when you give me a slip, or you send me a request for the first time that night (or if you happen to leave and come back) your name goes to the bottom of the screen. I will put you in front of nobody. Everyone else was moving ahead in the rotation. Everyone else was there before you. They sing before you.

The only way I will break from this? If someone calls ahead and tells me they are on the way and they are a trusted regular. I will put them at the bottom when they call, that way if anyone comes up to me after the phone call, they will go behind the caller.

Different ways to do it, but that's the KingBing rotation!

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

exception to the rule:

I have one singer that gives up her spot when her husband walks in so he can sing after he gets off work at 11:30.

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It's all good!

We're somewhere in the middle. We have such a large rotation that if we put new singers in the "back," then it would be an hour-and-a-half before they could sing, and they won't stick around. Our job is to keep people in the bar. So we compromise. New singers go in about 6 or 7 songs in, and then it's old, new, old, new, old, new, etc.

It seems to work well, and nobody gets pissed off, the bar makes money, and we get to come back.

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Birdofsong

Hey BoS. How's Mr. BoS?? I hope he is well. I am more like you. I think you have to include the newcomers and mix them with the early birds. Everyone sings, everyone's happy, and all is well.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

It doesn't matter how you do your rotation as long as it is consistent.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Actually, it kind of does matter. I would never have discovered the anomaly that occurs to the middle of the rotation people had I not taken the time to investigate.

As a reminder.... Say you get 8 people from the get go. Split them in half so you have Singers 5-8. Now, keep interjecting new singers ahead of them. Originally, they are 5-8. Then, they are 6-9. Two more singers: 8-10. Then, 9-11. Then, you split 10-11. They're now 12-13. When you have only 30 minutes left, how do you justify the original 5-8 now buried in the rotation? Spots 5-8 now belong to people that were not there in the beginning and essentially, do not deserve to be part of that partial round where you only have 30 minutes remaining.

This past Saturday, I had a wedding. I paid the lady that covered until I got there full price. When I arrived, it was kind of slow. She wanted to stay on to practice, so I let her. I relaxed, chatted it up with the customers, and drank. I was in the singing mood, so I EXPECTED to sing my fair share (only 5 singers max). Instead, I watched as she sang herself, invited others up to sing with her, then played music, all while I thought... WTF?

I bring this up because... as I have always said... imagine you are a singer, waiting for your turn. What goes through your head? Are most like me, mentally calculating the last time the person just called was on stage? Where I am opposed to them in the rotation? Should I go take a leak, or am I next? Do I have time to get a drink?

I could be wrong, but is consistency as important as predictability? Or, could they be equally important?

That's really a question I'd like to hear opinions on? Get into the heads of your customers. What do you think?

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

When I first decided to get into karaoke in '09, I was doing all the homework and research on it that I possibly could. I'll never forget reading an article by a kj who had been in it for decades. He said, "The hardest part about being a kj is running a fair rotation."

The reason why I never forgot that is because at that time, I had not hosted my first karaoke show yet, so I had no idea what he was talking about. His words made no sense to me. I thought, "Just how hard can it be to run a fair rotation?"

Now after running hundreds of shows, I completely understand.

The problem is that every Sally, Dick and Jane out there has their own idea of what a fair rotation is. What's fair to one person is not considered fair in the eyes of the next person.

So good luck with your new method. It sounds fair to me, but what I think doesn't really matter. What matters is if your regulars agree and if they stick with you during your change. For me, my most important customers are my regulars. If I get a general consensus from them to do it a certain way, then that's how I'm doing it.

Also, I have learned to be flexible with my rotation in different venues. In other words, I do it differently in different places depending on how busy it is, etc...

Yanno, you can't argue with the following points:

1) He/She was here waiting before you.
2) No one sang twice while you waited your turn.

I think that's all I need to say.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Think of the rotation as a vortex. Like if you are mixing ingredients into a sauce. You mix in new ingredients a little at a time, and it all comes together. So, starting with your first 8, 2 new people come along. I would add one in position 4 and one in position 7. Now you get a few more, and you do the same, only this time you put one in position 2 and one in position 9. Keep spreading them like that, and usually everyone stays happy. Of course you have those singers that will only sing one or two for the night, for whatever reason, and you can juggle the rotation accordingly.

You will always have someone who complains, can't help that. Some people think they should have preferential treatment. You just politely explain to them that you have to accommodate everyone. Putting all the new people at the end will make those people get up and leave, in some places.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

this is how i do mine as well.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

and where they are in the rotation......
if they are in early, they want the newbies mixed in after we restart the round. if they are in later, they want them put at the end.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

That's not fair. That's how the anomaly happens. No way those people in the middle should get pushed down. All I have to do is point to the original #8. Where is that person at the end of the night? Sitting down at #15? And that's what I'm talking about.

Start adding up the wait time for that person. And, what happens at the end of the night when you can only spin through half of your rotation. That person doesn't get to sing because 1) you interjected people ahead of them, and 2) you did not move them to the bottom of the rotation.

I'm not going to beat that to death again, but what you are doing is not fair.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Actually, it evens out. Those that came in early and those that came in later sing around the same amount of songs. First come first serve is a terrible idea. Just remember, your late arrivals may be just as regular as customers as your early arrivals. Some people can't help but get in late because they may work late. They should not be penalized. My system doesn't just keep pushing back the 8th person. It pushes everyone back, after a while, and evens it all out.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

If somebody gets off work late, knowing he might not get to sing, then they might go elsewhere. Also somebody that just got off work, might need to catch up on his drinking..$$$$, where as many people already there, have slacked off or quit drinking alcohol. But there are always karaoke hoppers, who go from show to show, knowing they will get to sing right away, and some singers, that have actually done the vast majority of their drinking somewhere else. Then you get people who drop big bucks on dinner, just because of the karaoke, but don't drink much after.....they keep that venue alive too. I always tried to figure out, who was who, and adjusted my new singers accordingly.

I put new singers in the middle of the rotation, and I tell you why. Of course, I can only speak for my bar.

All of my regulars come in early whenever possible. All of them. The casual singers come in late, or don't even think about singing until they have a buzz +1.

I typically have a rotation of about 10-12 regulars from 9:00-11:30ish, so they get about 3-4 songs each the first half of the night. I then typically start to get the casual singers at about 11:30, and have a rotation of 15-20 by about midnight. I work until 1:30, so the casual singers typically get one song each in that 2nd half of the show. My regulars will typically get ONE more song in the second half of the show, but I then stay late and let them sing one more time past my normal hours, and they tip me for my extra time.

Anyway, all that to say that my regulars would come to the show early and most of them stay late no matter how I do the rotation, as long as it's defined, consistent, and fair. The casual singers that are typically my "new" singers that I place in the middle of the rotation would never come back if I put them at the end of a 15-20 person rotation. I keep my regulars happy by taking care of them after hours, and I keep the new singers happy by showing them that they go in the middle of the roation. There's the occational unreasonable person that thinks it isn't fair, but they are usually of the mind that they should sing more than everyone else instead of being consistently treated the same as everyone else, so there's no pleasing them anyway.

Anyway, consistency is the key. You can put new singers at the end of the rotation, but I would bet that you are going to end up with a much higher % of unhappy new singers than I have with that method, and the regulars are pretty easy to please as long as you are consistent and treat everyone the same.

My 2c!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I always ran my shows with new singers get priority. So if one of my regulars had to work late, they know that they would at least get one rotation where they would not have to wait two hours to sing.

My regulars knew this and had no problems with it because they knew if they wanted to sing more, then they had to come early.

On average my regulars would get between 2 - 4 songs in a night depending on how busy it got.

If someone comes late, they will sing less no matter how you run your rotation. That, in my personal opinion, is the fairest way to do things. Everyone gets to sing as soon as possible but the people who come early get rewarded by singing more.

-James

I could tell you did not take the time to comprehend what happens after your first comment. And, I can tell you did not take any time again. If you did, I find it hard to believe that an experienced host, such as yourself, could justify what is happening, or consider it fair. Or, "even" for that matter.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

At the end of the night, when everyone has sang about the same number of songs, yes, I would say that is fair. If half the rotation sang 6 songs and the other half sang 2, that wouldn't be fair. Since I haven't had any complaints, I guess what I am doing is working.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE