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RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
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Author:  jdmeister [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
Whoever..

I spoke with a KJ friend today, and he drove over to visit his "Old Venue" to say hi..

Seems the karaoke police stopped by, and after a singer offered up a "Burned" disk, shut the club down..

The owner protested, but was threatened with a court date.. so he closed up for the night..

And, his yearly "Entertainment" fee went up three times what it was....

Sux..
Author:  billy d [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
Were you there? What were the exact circumstances. I believe you have good intentions, and you are an honest person, but this isn't even hear say. It is second or third hand hear say. Stories change from person to person, and we should believe half of what we see, and virtual nothing of what we hear or read...lol.....not having the all of the proper licensing, is usually what they crack down on. If the kj was not using "original disks "only" ", they would have busted him too. I need more proof, than a story from a story, from a story........I mean no disrespect to you, and you are only trying to relate pertinent information......take care
Author:  TTowntenor [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
jdmeister @ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:27 pm wrote:
Whoever..

I spoke with a KJ friend today, and he drove over to visit his "Old Venue" to say hi..

Seems the karaoke police stopped by, and after a singer offered up a "Burned" disk, shut the club down..

The owner protested, but was threatened with a court date.. so he closed up for the night..

And, his yearly "Entertainment" fee went up three times what it was....

Sux..


Seriously doubt it was because of a burnt disc...the publishers could care less about the media it's played  on (that isn't their enforcement) but whether the bar is actually paying their fees or not...sounds like the bar wasn't actually paying their regular yearly fee.
Author:  jdmeister [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
Second hand, true, but reliable..
The rates went up due to the additional area the music could be heard..
More customers, more fees..

The show was shut down, due to the burned disk. Not guessing. I spoke with the owner..

I suspect it was only an excuse.. Pressure if you will..

It seems they are using "Mafia Tactics"..  :wave:
Author:  Tom Eaton [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
There's got to be more to it than that.  I don't know who you mean by "karaoke police."  A private party can't just go into a club and say, sorry, you broke the rules, I'm shutting you down.  They've got to at least have a court order or something.
Author:  hamsamich [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
no there doesn't have to be more to it than that.  laws aren't always followed!  police don't always "get a warrent".  police aren't always police.  it seems some people on this forum think the world works exactly as it does on CSI.   my friend shawn is a leut. in the police force.  he says most of the time there is no warrent because people just want to cooperate, and when they don't, there could be reprecutions.  most business owners know this. if police go in and are told "you don't have a warrent", they can go get one and make things much worse for you, because it is easy to find something to make your life miserable.  or they might just go away.  the world isn't always just, people don't always get what they deserve.  there is alot of "grayness" out there..
Author:  timberlea [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
Also, if the police see the evidence in a bar, they don't need a warrant, as it is considered "plain sight".  If they want to go into offices etc, then they would need a warrant.  This is similar to your home.  The police need a warrant to enter your home unless you give them permission or, depending on the jurisdiction, they go in to preserve life or in "hot pursuit".  Now if you give them permission to enter and for example you forgot to put your drugs away or whatever, they can seize it as evidence, however, they will need a warrant to search the rest of the premises.
Author:  timberlea [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
Further to what JD said, unless the media was there or serious charges laid, the chances of it being reported will be slim to none.  It may be news to us, but not to the media.  Most bars will either comply or close as quietly as possible.  No bar wants negative publicity and as long as ASCAP etc get their money, they will be happy.
Author:  JoeChartreuse [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
JD,

  I believe there may be some missing info here.


   1)  The artist groups have no jurisdiction anywhere, and can't "bust" anyone.  They can't even interrupt a show to ask to see discs- nothing.


   2)  If, some law enforcement agency were somehow brought in ( which would require a warrant based on some evidence-doubtful) They still couldn't shut down the venue. At most, the venue would be issued a summons for a court date, as guilt of any crime has yet to be established. And IF an agency were called in, it would HAVE to issue one, not just tell the owner to close up

  BTW-law enforcement agencies in general have more important things to do.


   3)  A singer using a burned disc ( especially if marked as a back-up?) was for personal use.  No piracy had yet been established.


    BTW- hosts aren't liable either way.  All of that is the venues' responsibility...


If this happened at all, my guess is the venue ticked off the wrong people, ones with enough pull ( bribe?) to have the local yokels come in and rattle the cage...
Author:  jdmeister [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
You must be right.. :shock:
Author:  hamsamich [ Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
police have something better to do?  like give speeding tickets?


again, if a law enforcement agency comes in for whatever reason (they don't like the owner, the cops brother in law works for the bar down the street so he called got his wifes brther to shut them down, the list could go on and on), THEY DON'T have to have a warrent. if they come in and make threats, or say "it is in yourbest interest to.."  the owner shut it down himself, although it may appear the police did.  most of the time a warrent is not involved... CSI the world is not.
Author:  MC Krusty [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
I heard a guy in town got busted 3 or 4 years back by one of those anti-pirate karaoke organizations (I don't remember which one) and this is how they did it....

They had someone in the crowd acting as a bar patron and getting buddy-buddy with the KJ by talking to them, asking about the system, etc.

Then the fake patron asks the KJ if he can see inside the multi-disc player (this KJ company is a multi-rigger using 300 CD capacity changers).  When the KJ opens it up and shows him the disc, it's a burned one.  Then they slam the KJ company on it (not the bar from what I was told, again this was years ago).  The KJ company then has to scale down their operation for a while until they can build up their CDG's again.

On a side note, the KJ that opened the player wasn't the KJ company owner.  I guess he didn't tell his KJ's not to open the players.  Doh. :shock:

From what I heard, a competing KJ company in the area is the one that called the anti-pirate karaoke organization and reported the other company for using burned discs.  I don't even think that company that called really knew for sure, so that was kind of a chicken sh@t move IMO.
Author:  karyoker [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
The first time I remember being dragged into a bar was 1946..Beer was a nickel a glass and cheeseburgers were a quarter 30 cents extra for cheese and chips. When we were in town off the ranch I grew up in bars. Ten years in the navy during the 60's as a drunk and Shore Patrol I have been in the meanest port bars in this world. I know how bars operate I know how cops operate I can tell the difference between a real cop and one whom his still playing the role by his swagger and body control. When a new cop or deputy walks into a bar and sees the look in my eyes he immediately knows that this old man is not one he can intimidate or f*** with.. At a traffic stop after looking at their computer they dont want to approach without backup.. Because they are afraid of 60's vets..

As an officer in a VFW Post I know what it is to be harassed by over zealous cops or deputies.. I know what the legal requirements are for closing a bar down at the spot. It is MAJOR MAJOR I know what it is to battle city hall on the number of days being closed for a MAJOR violation...  

I have dealt with on a personal basis reps of ASCAP If I was in a bar and somebody threatened the bar owner because I was using a burned cd I would have them in court DISRICT COURT (It is not civil or municipal) and guess who would win

EDIT From a real prospective I dont deal with rumors Give me a telephone number or city where it occurred I will examine the records and will be in contact with the local DA or authorities responsible for city ordinances GIVE ME PROOF

Jd send them folks out to the ranch We will send a kid down on a 4 wheeler and unlock the gate and let them in Then we will go out behind the barn and discuss legalities.

Is there anybody here that realizes how much RIAA'S fiasco suing teens and an grandmothers hurt our business which doesnt even have to do with ORIGINAL recordings? They did not decrease downloads but totally turned off the public on the music industry..Karaoke singers are staying home people!!!!!! They are tired of the crap.. It is not the singers, bar owners or KJ'S responsibilty to make sure the copyright laws are not being violated.. I have spent hundreds of dollars on their products and have received no support in fact they want to threaten my venues with lawsuits and I am sick and tired of people on the net or posters on this forum questioning my integrity or totally supporting the manus and not hard working KJ'S

You can either spend all your resources on blaming pirates and other lame excuses and not adapting like big corps or we can start pooling resources and as common folks  start coming up with viable solutions as to why the very thing we love is dying. If the cd manus have problems with adapting to new technologies it is their problem not my singers or the venues I used to work for.. It is their problem and I am tired of sacrificing and tired of my friends and customers having to adapt or sacrifice for corporate inadesaquecies or political BS.. And if the dreamers on this forum cant understand this simple concept $#%%#$$%%

Also if you want to come down to VFW Post 2121 2730 8th Greeley CO WE will go out in back by the dumpster and discuss legalaties...  LMAO
Author:  JoeChartreuse [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
BTW- these artists groups are going through some major legal problems of their own.  It seems there are some accounting problems in regard to dispersal of funds to artists, including studio musicians. Seems some of the funds haven't been getting to the artists..

  This particular problem has been causing them losses in court. LOT'S of them.  I've a feeling they will be mellowing out very soon......
Author:  jdmeister [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
JoeChartreuse @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:17 pm wrote:
BTW- these artists groups are going through some major legal problems of their own.  It seems there are some accounting problems in regard to dispersal of funds to artists, including studio musicians. Seems some of the funds haven't been getting to the artists..

  This particular problem has been causing them losses in court. LOT'S of them.  I've a feeling they will be mellowing out very soon......


Two wrongs don't seem to cancel out..

Ripping off songwriters/artists etc has been the M.O. for years..

Now it seems they are boosting innocent KJs/club owners....

Many years in the movie industry shows just how bad it can be..

The refrain is: "I just got my check from BMI for 23 cents".
Author:  JoeChartreuse [ Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
hamsamich @ Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:28 pm wrote:
police have something better to do?  like give speeding tickets?



Yup, town loves the income. Rousting local businesses is generally frowned upon. That's why I believe that if it happened, the venue p.o.ed someone with money or juice....nothing to do with the artist reps- they'd just be an excuse..
Author:  jdmeister [ Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
JoeChartreuse @ Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:13 pm wrote:
hamsamich @ Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:28 pm wrote:
police have something better to do?  like give speeding tickets?



Yup, town loves the income. Rousting local businesses is generally frowned upon. That's why I believe that if it happened, the venue p.o.ed someone with money or juice....nothing to do with the artist reps- they'd just be an excuse..


You seem to confuse a local action with the out of town goons that travel around and shake down clubs for cash..

Perhaps a broader view?
Author:  timberlea [ Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
Yep and as soon as police stop doing radar/lidar and the idiots start speeding again causing accidents, the public rises up and say what are the cops doing about it.  Nope can't please anyone.
Author:  hamsamich [ Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
I am not taking a moral view on any of this, nor am I talking about being pleased or displeased.  All I am talking about is the way things are, or might be. I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened.  I've talked to friends who are cops, read a few good books, and have come to realize that things work very differently in different parts of the world, and even in different parts of the US and Canada.  Whether or not Joe Blow got shut down legally or ilegally, immorally or morally really isn't what I'm interested in, although this does matter to me, but there isn't much I can do about it.  So I want to know how things ARE.  I'm not talking about right or wrong, rather WHAT IS REALITY, or a decent composite version of it.  OUGHT does not equal IS usually, and people commonly mistake one for the other.  I'm not an expert in logic but the following page may explain what I am trying to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

"Ought to be" does not equal "the way it really is".  If it is written in law, that still may not be the way it is done.  If I don't agree with what I think happened based on what I know to be true, that doesn't mean I AM AGAINST OR FOR what happened, it only means I don't think it happened that way.
Author:  Phxkj [ Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RIAA, KAPA, BMI Etc..
JD, the scenario that you erxplain in the original post seems fairly realistic to me, I have owned bars and been involved with asccap and bmi for years,  It would seem that a field agent for ascap or bmi ( there are usually 2 to 4 field agents per state for each organization), was checking the est. to see how many nights they were using live entertainment or karaoke, or to just make sure what's going on. that's thier job. Maybe noticed the place was bigger than what it was contracted for. Usually the fee is directly proportioned to the square footage. Or a number of years ago both ascap and bmi were just happy to collect for min. amount  and know want the full amout for the sq. footage. Anyway, the minute the karaoke host played a burned disc, it made the existing contract with either bmi or ascap null and void, If you break the contract by using an illegal copy and get caught you can loose your license for  perfomance. I'm sure then the agent told the bar owner if he didn't close for the night they would issue  a ticket for a hearing and he could take his chances, in the meantime he would be without performance licensing and would not be able to play anykind of music, no sound on his tv's, no live entertainment and NO KARAOKE. What's the bar owner going to do???  CLOSE FOR THE NIGHT.
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