Karaoke Forums

Think about the strictly business end of it.

Karaoke is the tiniest percentage of the giants' business/income. Actual karaoke PRODUCERS are each a micro-percentage. Karaoke hangers-on who produce nothing- like SC- are pretty much in the "gnat-gas" category. Yes, SC poked them with sticks, made a lot of noise- enough to stir them- but they're done, nothing but a disturbance. They have no need of anything that SC could offer, and SC isn't even a player- so shove them out of the way for a minute- because the giants will.

If Jim's explanaition for SC's inability to produce new tracks is true ( meaning that the big guys have enough juice to change the conditions of a signed contract after the fact), then the giants can change the whole face of karaoke production- and they don't need the current producers to do it.

I believe Kurt, with a complete absence of business accumen, actually thinks that getting the giants involved would be good for him, and SC would be in a position of some control in these matters. His hope is that if they can get mfrs. like MM, SGB, and others removed from use, SC's old tracks will have found a new market. BTW- NONE OF THIS has anthing to do with piracy at all- just SC sales.....which won't happen. Again, the 3-4 person litigation company hanger-on known as SC (and microscopic in comparison to the giants) will go unnoticed and unserved. If the giants really get serious. the good news would be getting ORIGINAL backing tracks with lyrics- not gonna get much better quality than that. However, if that happens, it will be because the giants are in control with no competition- THEY will be the karaoke producers. Bye Bye karaoke companies..

Monopolies are expensive for the consumer, not just monetarily, but through lack of choice. Monetarily, if the giants decide to get involved they will do so only if it is worthwhile to them. Remember, due to their size and income what is worthwhile to them will have to be a lot more than what is worthwhile to the karaoke producers.

Don't get me wrong. They own the music, and in this case at least we would get the best quality in return for the buck, so at least we would get something out of it. However, higher expenses are still higher expenses.

This isn't about SC ( except in regard to their incredible ability to step on their own toes), but rather the results of their poking and litigational noise-making. Say hello to the grown-ups. They're here now...

The "No-Fly" list was just a toe-wriggle

Again, remember who did it when the time comes.......

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It should be no surprise to anyone that SC is all about generating leasing of their product. Just as CB/DTE is focused on getting more subscribers to their Cloud service. They use the threat of legal action as a marketing tool to create demand for product and service, both are trying to sell. These manus are also involved in trying to shape the market to suit their own goals. It seems that they won't be able to prevent the import of legal copyrighted material from foreign producers thanks to Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons. They will not be able to corner the market, to form a cartel of two manus supplying at least 80% of the available karaoke music material. One thing about getting the publishers involved which could prove a problem, is the fact the publishers are going to work from the top down, not the bottom up. That means they are going after the same manus, that are currently trying to get them on their side. There is a good chance that the publishers are going to consider the lone owner operator of a single rig as too lowly for them to bother with.

It's been stated somewhere, cannot just blame SC. When kj's and people are constantly calling and bugging the publishers about which songs are and aren't licensed, it was just a matter of time they started seeing the red flags fly.

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I don't know Lon. I don't think it was grouchy individuals that woke them up.

Lone, this thread really isn't about what SC is or isn't doing- my point was that they don't even count - though they might think so.

I was speaking only of possible changes that might be made by the giants who- if they felt like it- could do pretty much what they want. Jim claims that the giants want to maintain control of the music reproduced by the karaoke mfrs. now, which he said is the reason that SC is still unable to produce.

If that's the case, it represents the first of many possible changes in the industry that could be made, limiting or even ending karaoke production by non-owner sources.

Another alternative would be to allow the karaoke companies to continue, but only after paying much more to do so and passing that cost on to us.

Or, if it could be made worthwhile, they could limit production to themselves, making better karaoke using original tracks- for a goodly sum.

Then again, maybe they might roll over and go back to sleep.

What they WON'T do- now that they are awakening- is anything that directly benefits the karaoke companies. It will go the other way if it goes at all, which- if one were to agree that SC woke them- I find ironic.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It has been said Joe that we forge our own chains. In some cases we do things that hurry our own demise personally as well as business wise. To me getting the publishers involved is a sign of desperation on the side of the manus. It can have as you point out dire consequences that none of us in the industry can foresee. Once you have unleashed forces you cannot control, you simply have to ride out the storm, where ever it might lead you. Like they used to have on the glass, "break in case of emergency", now we have to see what happens now the the glass has been broken.

Don't get me wrong. They own the music, and in this case at least we would get the best quality in return for the buck, so at least we would get something out of it. However, higher expenses are still higher expenses.

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It's also been stated somewhere, the copyright owners issue a license,
(Time and or quantity) and the CD+G producers accidentally over print, and forget to inventory the disks in either set of books.

So when these naughty KJs ring up the copyright owners and inquire about proper license, it would seem that something is not as it should be. Red flags away..

The above scenario is all hypothetical, of course.

CD+G manus would never attempt to avoid license fees.

Not one CD+G manu has ever been sued, right?

HMMM... Where did I read that before?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Isn't it fair to say that the cost to start a new karaoke show is at it's lowest point in the history of karaoke? The same for maintaining an up-to-date library?


-Chris

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-Chris

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that about any number of business opportunities that have had advances in technology and organization...

My point is that contrary to what jonnblaze and Joe are suggesting, the cost to start and maintain a karaoke show is now as low as it has ever been. There have been no costs passed on to us that have placed a financial strain on karaoke hosts. Time and technology have reduced the cost to run a show.

I believe there is a little bit of "the sky is falling" mentality that has arisen as a result of recent information coming to light.

-Chris

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-Chris

I agree with you Chris it is the best of times and it is the worst of times depending on who you talk to. For the new hosts and established hosts that want to expand their business if they are starting up, the current legal product is cheaper than it has ever been. GEM series 6,000 tracks for 3500.00 and Cloud subscription 99.00 per month. You get the added advantage that the two manus that are currently using the legal process will not come after you since you are paid up. It is the worst of times however for the old established hosts that have paid for their product full price. Since they are only 5 to 10% of the karaoke industry and not potential customers what does it matter? True they have probably recouped their investment many times over if they have been in business any length of time, still they do have to compete with these new legal hosts and venues who do their own in house karaoke. It is a mixed bag that will only get more confusing if the publishers get serious about the little professional karaoke industry.

That is the natural cycle of being an early adopter. I paid $600 for my first CD player back in 1983. Now they are $39 at Wal-Mart. So I don't see that as a worst of times scenario especially since when they were also getting paid $300/night or more for a karaoke show. Adjust that for cost of living, reverse-inflation, etc, and karaoke hosts were doing very, very well back in the day.

-Chris

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-Chris

It is not hard to see that the manufacturing side of this industry is falling victim to many of the same issues other companies have over the decades that were unable to keep up with change, whether it be technological, social, economical, etc. There are hundreds, yea, even thousands, of businesses and industries that have had to go through the "adapt or die" phase; some come out on the other side relatively unscathed, others have gone by the wayside.

In this instance, it might be a safe assumption that the new players in the industry have started their karaoke production businesses with a minute percentage of the number of employees as were used in decades past. Although the results of these changes are unfortunate, the inevitability is there, and using such a point as that for sympathy is, IMO, a bit overreaching.

I must admit that, in my years of exercising my consumer advocacy, I cannot recall having viewed with interest an industry that is so utterly dependent on the work of another industry. One might even be able to conclude that some of the negative stigma associated with karaoke might not even be the crux of the issue on the publishing side of things. The core of the karaoke industry is the fact that they are "recreating" the creative works of others--a base act that many areas of creativity are vehemently opposed to. It alters and, in their opinion, somehow waters down the uniqueness of their creation. Just these concepts alone create enough of a chasm to make this industry challenging, much less the issues discussed ad nauseam in this forum...

I think that some may feel that okaying their creative piece be used for karaoke is like a painting master licensing their work for paint by numbers sets. But songs are a different animal. In the old days a person would write a song and HOPE that a lot of people wanted to sing it--they made their money selling sheet music. So writing a song to be sung and not just listened to is a very old concept--and one that ensures that perhaps one's song will be remembered a few hundred years from now. Most songwriters probably got their start doing other people's songs and were inspired by them--so aside from the fear of not being paid, I'm not sure why some don't understand what their songs mean to people as far as being able to sing them.

It also reminds me of how many High School Drama Depts. put on plays such as "The Miracle Worker." Sure, they are amateurs but they pay their fee and they are allowed to interpret the work. I don't see karaoke as being too different in that respect.

The use of terms like "old days" and "old concept" gives an indication of the recognition of the changes, both present and future, that come with entering this industry, as well as dealing with the frustration for those that have been in it for some time. The omnipresent "days" and "concepts" have one thing in common, and Otis Redding sang it well: "A Change Is Gonna Come", and in our digital age, the speed at which it comes is perpetually escalating...

Irony. The song you mention was done by Sam Cooke, later covered by Redding and many more. It went through decades of legal problems due to a dispute between Cooke's music publisher and the record company. Something about rights and licensing.

Guess I didn't do much to avoid that...let's try another one that might have as good of a message, but less controversial from a publishing standpoint: Sheryl Crow's "A Change Will Do You Good"......

Someone- I think it was Chris- mentioned how inexpensive things are now. A point completely missed. Yes, NOW. What I was saying is that once or if the giants get involved you can kiss that goodbye- and maybe the hosting business as well.

AGAIN-

The publishers/owners can do what they want, and need nothing from the karaoke producers who are powerless beside them, or to stop them. THEY are the top of the music chain.

They can demand whatever fees and control they want from the producers, adding to our costs.

They can prohibit the use of certain sources, reducing competition, once again increasing our costs ( can you say "monopoly"?)

They can tell the producers to do what they want or screw off, reducing supply.

They can- if the producers balk- simply kill legal ( and quality) production of new music.

They could simply come up with a Cease and Desist in regard to the use of their property (copyrights) for hosting karaoke.

In short, they can do whatever they want. This means that um...whoever...was stupid enough to poke and make enough legal noise to awaken them did nothing but ill for ALL karaoke producers for sure, and MAYBE hosts, though I feel that the producers such as DT, PS, SyberSongs, and SC will feel the most pain.

Sometimes some ex-karaoke producers shoot themselves in the foot- and often...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."